Drake Maye or J.J. McCarthy?

[RubeTube]

Caleb Williams has a strong Collin Kaepernick vibe. I predict that he will not have sustained success. He may do well for a couple/few years and then his attitude and sense of self-importance will get the better of him.

I don’t think he’s some 100% shoe in to be great. He’s not close to the same level prospect as Andy Luck imo.

[somuchyummy]

if we take JJ, I think it's about a 50/50 chance we'll be looking for another QB in three years. Year one behind Darnold. Year two given the reins, there will be lumps. Year Three sink or swim. Not convinced he's a top ten pick.

[RubeTube]

if we take JJ, I think it's about a 50/50 chance we'll be looking for another QB in three years. Year one behind Darnold. Year two given the reins, there will be lumps. Year Three sink or swim. Not convinced he's a top ten pick.

X2

[mlhouse]

if we take JJ, I think it's about a 50/50 chance we'll be looking for another QB in three years. Year one behind Darnold. Year two given the reins, there will be lumps. Year Three sink or swim. Not convinced he's a top ten pick.

X2

If we take Terrion Arnold at #11 there is a 50% chance we will be looking for a CB in three years. One year behind Evans. Another rocky road as a starter with lots of defensive holding penalties. Then year 3 sink or swim... not convinced he is a top 15 pick.

YOu can write this for EVERY draft prospect, including Caleb WIlliams and Jayden Daniels.

[TheLokNesMonster]

if we take JJ, I think it's about a 50/50 chance we'll be looking for another QB in three years. Year one behind Darnold. Year two given the reins, there will be lumps. Year Three sink or swim. Not convinced he's a top ten pick.

Spending a top 10 pick on McCarthy seems like a desperate move. What has he shown to the evaluators that warrant that kind of draft position? Even during their championship run he never looked like more than a career back up.

It’s hard to believe scouts think he can blossom that much.but maybe his interviews and workouts indicate that he has what other greats have. Who knows?

I hope the Vikes don’t draft him. Build the team. There is some big time talent in the first round.

[mlhouse]

if we take JJ, I think it's about a 50/50 chance we'll be looking for another QB in three years. Year one behind Darnold. Year two given the reins, there will be lumps. Year Three sink or swim. Not convinced he's a top ten pick.

Spending a top 10 pick on McCarthy seems like a desperate move. What has he shown to the evaluators that warrant that kind of draft position? Even during their championship run he never looked like more than a career back up.

It’s hard to believe scouts think he can blossom that much.but maybe his interviews and workouts indicate that he has what other greats have. Who knows?

I hope the Vikes don’t draft him. Build the team. There is some big time talent in the first round.

Because if you watch him play he is a top 10 pick. He has all of the talent you want in a NFL franchise QB. Scouts don't look at the interviews and workouts that much. THose are more killers than makers.

If you watch McCarthy actually throw the football you would understand this.

[TheLokNesMonster]

if we take JJ, I think it's about a 50/50 chance we'll be looking for another QB in three years. Year one behind Darnold. Year two given the reins, there will be lumps. Year Three sink or swim. Not convinced he's a top ten pick.

Spending a top 10 pick on McCarthy seems like a desperate move. What has he shown to the evaluators that warrant that kind of draft position? Even during their championship run he never looked like more than a career back up.

It’s hard to believe scouts think he can blossom that much.but maybe his interviews and workouts indicate that he has what other greats have. Who knows?

I hope the Vikes don’t draft him. Build the team. There is some big time talent in the first round.

Because if you watch him play he is a top 10 pick. He has all of the talent you want in a NFL franchise QB. Scouts don't look at the interviews and workouts that much. THose are more killers than makers.

If you watch McCarthy actually throw the football you would understand this.

That’s what they said about Sam Darnold.

[mlhouse]

Spending a top 10 pick on McCarthy seems like a desperate move. What has he shown to the evaluators that warrant that kind of draft position? Even during their championship run he never looked like more than a career back up.

It’s hard to believe scouts think he can blossom that much.but maybe his interviews and workouts indicate that he has what other greats have. Who knows?

I hope the Vikes don’t draft him. Build the team. There is some big time talent in the first round.

Because if you watch him play he is a top 10 pick. He has all of the talent you want in a NFL franchise QB. Scouts don't look at the interviews and workouts that much. THose are more killers than makers.

If you watch McCarthy actually throw the football you would understand this.

That’s what they said about Sam Darnold.

Yep and he was the 3rd overall pick.

[TheLokNesMonster]

Because if you watch him play he is a top 10 pick. He has all of the talent you want in a NFL franchise QB. Scouts don't look at the interviews and workouts that much. THose are more killers than makers.

If you watch McCarthy actually throw the football you would understand this.

That’s what they said about Sam Darnold.

Yep and he was the 3rd overall pick.

Yeah. So. We got him. Are we goi)g to groom the next Sam Darnold by letting him sit for a year behind Sam Darnold?

[mlhouse]

That’s what they said about Sam Darnold.

Yep and he was the 3rd overall pick.

Yeah. So. We got him. Are we goi)g to groom the next Sam Darnold by letting him sit for a year behind Sam Darnold?

Lots of players become better players than Sam. You look for the traits and mechanics of a franchise NFL QB. McCarthy has them all, and in some cases has high levels of those skills. Best arm talent in this draft along with high end mobility. He is also the only QB in this draft that played in anything close to a pro system and has experience under center. His ability to run play action is something no other QB in the draft has demonstrated (they are all RPO). This is a critical skill because play action requires the QB taking his eyes off the LOS. Many young QBs cannot do this so that is why they substitute RPO action instead.

[Small Hands]

Yep and he was the 3rd overall pick.

Yeah. So. We got him. Are we goi)g to groom the next Sam Darnold by letting him sit for a year behind Sam Darnold?

Lots of players become better players than Sam. You look for the traits and mechanics of a franchise NFL QB. McCarthy has them all, and in some cases has high levels of those skills. Best arm talent in this draft along with high end mobility. He is also the only QB in this draft that played in anything close to a pro system and has experience under center. His ability to run play action is something no other QB in the draft has demonstrated (they are all RPO). This is a critical skill because play action requires the QB taking his eyes off the LOS. Many young QBs cannot do this so that is why they substitute RPO action instead.

You keep saying “best arm talent” in the draft. Where are you basing that? I’d argue Daniels, Maye, and Penix have better arm talent.

[William Munny]

Caleb Williams has a strong Collin Kaepernick vibe. I predict that he will not have sustained success. He may do well for a couple/few years and then his attitude and sense of self-importance will get the better of him.

I don’t think he’s some 100% shoe in to be great. He’s not close to the same level prospect as Andy Luck imo.

Williams has big talent, but a defective personality and questionable fortitude at best.

[mlhouse]

Yeah. So. We got him. Are we goi)g to groom the next Sam Darnold by letting him sit for a year behind Sam Darnold?

Lots of players become better players than Sam. You look for the traits and mechanics of a franchise NFL QB. McCarthy has them all, and in some cases has high levels of those skills. Best arm talent in this draft along with high end mobility. He is also the only QB in this draft that played in anything close to a pro system and has experience under center. His ability to run play action is something no other QB in the draft has demonstrated (they are all RPO). This is a critical skill because play action requires the QB taking his eyes off the LOS. Many young QBs cannot do this so that is why they substitute RPO action instead.

You keep saying “best arm talent” in the draft. Where are you basing that? I’d argue Daniels, Maye, and Penix have better arm talent.

No way. They aren't throwing into Big Ten coverage and much tighter windows.

Daniels has significant mechanical issues, especially a looping throwing motion. Maye has TERRIBLE footwork and had terrible accuracy issues this past season. Penix has a terrible arm angle that simply is almost impossible to make work in the NFL (he throws the ball basically sidearm on every delivery).

The issues that McCarthy has with mechanics are minor and very fixable. I think Maye's footwork can be fixed too but more difficult.

[mlhouse]

You can't really watch highlights to make evaluations of a player. But the throw at 2:10 of this video is the one that is most representative of that arm talent I speak of. No other QB in this draft is making that throw. I will note, they may or may not be able to throw into that window. In the NFL they will have to, but Penix, Williams, Daniels and Maye never had to throw into that window. They had open receivers all over the field.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DM_XMt5fqiQ

[Skolbro]

Caleb Williams has a strong Collin Kaepernick vibe. I predict that he will not have sustained success. He may do well for a couple/few years and then his attitude and sense of self-importance will get the better of him.

My 12 son told me he is "zesty". I had to look up what that meant on Urban Dictionary.

[witljon]

Lots of players become better players than Sam. You look for the traits and mechanics of a franchise NFL QB. McCarthy has them all, and in some cases has high levels of those skills. Best arm talent in this draft along with high end mobility. He is also the only QB in this draft that played in anything close to a pro system and has experience under center. His ability to run play action is something no other QB in the draft has demonstrated (they are all RPO). This is a critical skill because play action requires the QB taking his eyes off the LOS. Many young QBs cannot do this so that is why they substitute RPO action instead.

You keep saying “best arm talent” in the draft. Where are you basing that? I’d argue Daniels, Maye, and Penix have better arm talent.

No way. They aren't throwing into Big Ten coverage and much tighter windows.

Daniels has significant mechanical issues, especially a looping throwing motion. Maye has TERRIBLE footwork and had terrible accuracy issues this past season. Penix has a terrible arm angle that simply is almost impossible to make work in the NFL

I think you will be proven wrong about Penix. Injury history is much more of a concern than arm angle. Before the championship game Penix looked like he was going to be one of the first 3 QBs drafted and McCarthy a 2nd rounder. After that game McCarthy became the better prospect. What happened? Michigans defense hit Penix early, injuring his ribs, yet he still passed for 255 yards and a TD under pressure all night. He was intercepted twice on 51 attempts. McCarthy completed 10 passes and no TDs. I tried to buy into the McCarthy hype, but it just didn’t happen. .

[somuchyummy]

Yeah. So. We got him. Are we goi)g to groom the next Sam Darnold by letting him sit for a year behind Sam Darnold?

Lots of players become better players than Sam. You look for the traits and mechanics of a franchise NFL QB. McCarthy has them all, and in some cases has high levels of those skills. Best arm talent in this draft along with high end mobility. He is also the only QB in this draft that played in anything close to a pro system and has experience under center. His ability to run play action is something no other QB in the draft has demonstrated (they are all RPO). This is a critical skill because play action requires the QB taking his eyes off the LOS. Many young QBs cannot do this so that is why they substitute RPO action instead.

You keep saying “best arm talent” in the draft. Where are you basing that? I’d argue Daniels, Maye, and Penix have better arm talent.

Rattler has probably one of the best arms in the draft. Can make all the throws - and was asked to do so.

[RubeTube]

You keep saying “best arm talent” in the draft. Where are you basing that? I’d argue Daniels, Maye, and Penix have better arm talent.

No way. They aren't throwing into Big Ten coverage and much tighter windows.

Daniels has significant mechanical issues, especially a looping throwing motion. Maye has TERRIBLE footwork and had terrible accuracy issues this past season. Penix has a terrible arm angle that simply is almost impossible to make work in the NFL

I think you will be proven wrong about Penix. Injury history is much more of a concern than arm angle. Before the championship game Penix looked like he was going to be one of the first 3 QBs drafted and McCarthy a 2nd rounder. After that game McCarthy became the better prospect. What happened? Michigans defense hit Penix early, injuring his ribs, yet he still passed for 255 yards and a TD under pressure all night. He was intercepted twice on 51 attempts. McCarthy completed 10 passes and no TDs. I tried to buy into the McCarthy hype, but it just didn’t happen. .

Penix Jr. can spin it. In fact, he might throw the “Purest” ball since Marino.

[-VikingsTw-]

I seen a video last night detailing Penix's history with Indiana. He elevated that school to heights that they hadn't seen in decades when he played, he's a difference maker. The entire chat about these QB's is different if Penix didn't have the injuries.

To me it's worth a single draft choice without trading multiples in the event you can't trade up for a more preferred option.

I'm hoping for the best for him cause he's very talented and clearly loves the game. If he can stay healthy that's one hell of a story and would change everything about how injuries are viewed.

[mlhouse]

Penix looked like he was going to be one of the first 3 QBs drafted and McCarthy a 2nd rounder.

Rated by WHOM as a 2nd round pick!!! Internet draft experts? That is what happens when you watch GAMES to evaluate players rather than indidual "film".

The real reason for McCarthy's RISE UP THE BOARDS is that once the true draft evaluations began in NFL offices the guys like Kiper who are plugged in began to get information from the pro scouts. Once these evaluations began seeping out, the true position on McCarthy became clear. He never moved anywhere. JJ McCarthy has been a projected first round pick three fucking years ago with the only question of which year he would come out in the draft.

The person I follow online the most on QBs is JT OSullivan. My evaluations are mostly based on how he reviews QBs. This year, he did not have anything I have seen on QB prospects (I heard he moved all of that to his Patreon site that I still have not signed up for). But he sat down on some podcast to discuss the prospects and it surprised me very little that he had the QBs ranked exactly the same way as I did: Williams-Daniels-McCarthy-Maye-Penix and said basically everything I have said, weeks before. He even made the comparison of Penix's arm angle to Phillip Rivers that I have made, with the comment he was around Rivers so much he just got used to that motion.

I predicted, weeks ago, that JJ McCarthy was a top 10 pick. I predicted, weeks ago, that most people will think to draft JJ McCarthy the VIkings would have to trade up. This was when McCarthy was "rated a 2nd rounder". Now those predictions are conventional wisdom. Just about ever mock has the Vikings, or some other team, trading up to draft JJ McCarthy. As uneasy as it makes me to be on the side of conventional wisdom, the reason for this is what I observed about JJ McCarthy: best arm talent in this draft and far above average QB mobility.

WHile I think Maye is a very good QB, based on the total footwork mechanical inconsistency Maye demonstrated during the 2023 season, I don't see how anyone has him rated higher than JJ McCarthy. But some scouts/front offices might prefer Maye's 6-4 height. Some may factor in his 2022 tape more than others. So, I guess it is possible but I take McCarthy over Maye if I had a choice.

[witljon]

Yep and he was the 3rd overall pick.

Yeah. So. We got him. Are we goi)g to groom the next Sam Darnold by letting him sit for a year behind Sam Darnold?

Lots of players become better players than Sam. You look for the traits and mechanics of a franchise NFL QB. McCarthy has them all, and in some cases has high levels of those skills. Best arm talent in this draft along with high end mobility. He is also the only QB in this draft that played in anything close to a pro system and has experience under center.

That is complete bullshit! Penix shined in a pro-style passing offense. McCarthy’s experience under center was as a game manager. He attempted 330 passes to Penix’s 555. As far as I’m concerned, the McCarthy hype is all on his potential while Penix already has proved what he can do. Penix makes quick decisions on big plays downfield. He has a very quick release and is an accurate passer.

[mlhouse]

Yeah. So. We got him. Are we goi)g to groom the next Sam Darnold by letting him sit for a year behind Sam Darnold?

Lots of players become better players than Sam. You look for the traits and mechanics of a franchise NFL QB. McCarthy has them all, and in some cases has high levels of those skills. Best arm talent in this draft along with high end mobility. He is also the only QB in this draft that played in anything close to a pro system and has experience under center.

That is complete bullshit! Penix shined in a pro-style passing offense. McCarthy’s experience under center was as a game manager. He attempted 330 passes to Penix’s 555. As far as I’m concerned, the McCarthy hype is all on his potential while Penix already has proved what he can do. Penix makes quick decisions on big plays downfield. He has a very quick release and is an accurate passer.

I don't think you have really looked at Penix much to tell you the truth. YOu are utilizing statistics to make your judgement. Who cares about how many passes a QB threw in college.

Often when you are analyzing quarterbacks you can break them down into more specific categories and there are things I think Michael Penix is the best in this class. For example, he is the best QB in this class in dropping the ball in between zone coverage. ON the other hand, I think his "big play" reputation is a bit overexaggerated because his wide receivers were so elite (one should go in top 15 and two others should be drafted on Day 2). Too often you will see Penix just loft the 50-50 ball downfield and be rewarded because his receivers turned it into a 75-25 ball. Penix is not mobile, although his pro day measurements put him back on the board in my opinion. He is heavy footed and throws too many back foot, weird release throws down the field.

So again, there is a reason why these two guys have changed places in all of the draft talk. If you sit down and analyze them in isolation, not watching a game, you can easily see these factors in play.

If the Vikings cannot draft one of the top 4 QBs, I would personally take a shot on Penix at 23 if he is there at that pick.

Otherwise, I would not draft a QB in this draft and just see what Sam Darnold can do.  

[-VikingsTw-]

It probably wouldn't be fan favorite to leave the 1st round without a QB but if they drafted Byron Murphy and Graham Barton I would be happy as a clam.

I personally think that gives Darnold a great opportunity. It makes the Vikings way better on both side of the ball in the trenches. And if you want to substitute Barton for another interior lineman whatever, just build the trenches so the Lions don't pound us.

[Hornets]

Souhan says the Vikes should pass on JJ and go with Penix or even Nix ahead of him!

[TheLokNesMonster]

Megan Newquist just said she doesn’t think JJ will be there when the Vikes pick at 11.

She clearly knows something…

[TheLokNesMonster]

No way. They aren't throwing into Big Ten coverage and much tighter windows.

Daniels has significant mechanical issues, especially a looping throwing motion. Maye has TERRIBLE footwork and had terrible accuracy issues this past season. Penix has a terrible arm angle that simply is almost impossible to make work in the NFL

I think you will be proven wrong about Penix. Injury history is much more of a concern than arm angle. Before the championship game Penix looked like he was going to be one of the first 3 QBs drafted and McCarthy a 2nd rounder. After that game McCarthy became the better prospect. What happened? Michigans defense hit Penix early, injuring his ribs, yet he still passed for 255 yards and a TD under pressure all night. He was intercepted twice on 51 attempts. McCarthy completed 10 passes and no TDs. I tried to buy into the McCarthy hype, but it just didn’t happen. .

Penix Jr. can spin it. In fact, he might throw the “Purest” ball since Marino.

And this arm angle criticism is nonsense. How many throws does Mahomes or Jackson, or any modern QB make with feet set, and coming over the top? They throw it from every angle except what is considered textbook.

Penix does have the best release and pretty much everything else as it relates to throwing a football, when compared to these other QB’s.

The Vikes blow two first rounders on JJ McCarthy and I’ll start believing that this organization is a dumb as you fans say.

[witljon]

Lots of players become better players than Sam. You look for the traits and mechanics of a franchise NFL QB. McCarthy has them all, and in some cases has high levels of those skills. Best arm talent in this draft along with high end mobility. He is also the only QB in this draft that played in anything close to a pro system and has experience under center.

That is complete bullshit! Penix shined in a pro-style passing offense. McCarthy’s experience under center was as a game manager. He attempted 330 passes to Penix’s 555. As far as I’m concerned, the McCarthy hype is all on his potential while Penix already has proved what he can do. Penix makes quick decisions on big plays downfield. He has a very quick release and is an accurate passer.

I don't think you have really looked at Penix much to tell you the truth. YOu are utilizing statistics to make your judgement. Who cares about how many passes a QB threw in college.

Often when you are analyzing quarterbacks you can break them down into more specific categories and there are things I think Michael Penix is the best in this class. For example, he is the best QB in this class in dropping the ball in between zone coverage. ON the other hand, I think his "big play" reputation is a bit overexaggerated because his wide receivers were so elite (one should go in top 15 and two others should be drafted on Day 2). Too often you will see Penix just loft the 50-50 ball downfield and be rewarded because his receivers turned it into a 75-25 ball. Penix is not mobile, although his pro day measurements put him back on the board in my opinion. He is heavy footed and throws too many back foot, weird release throws down the field.

So again, there is a reason why these two guys have changed places in all of the draft talk. If you sit down and analyze them in isolation, not watching a game, you can easily see these factors in play.

If the Vikings cannot draft one of the top 4 QBs, I would personally take a shot on Penix at 23 if he is there at that pick.

Otherwise, I would not draft a QB in this draft and just see what Sam Darnold can do.  

I guess I have to explain my point is to dispute your statement that McCarthy is the only QB in this draft that played in anything close to a pro system. And McCarthy experience is as a game manager.

[weimy froob]

Souhan says the Vikes should pass on JJ and go with Penix or even Nix ahead of him!

might have worse football takes than charch.

[Small Hands]

Lots of players become better players than Sam. You look for the traits and mechanics of a franchise NFL QB. McCarthy has them all, and in some cases has high levels of those skills. Best arm talent in this draft along with high end mobility. He is also the only QB in this draft that played in anything close to a pro system and has experience under center. His ability to run play action is something no other QB in the draft has demonstrated (they are all RPO). This is a critical skill because play action requires the QB taking his eyes off the LOS. Many young QBs cannot do this so that is why they substitute RPO action instead.

You keep saying “best arm talent” in the draft. Where are you basing that? I’d argue Daniels, Maye, and Penix have better arm talent.

No way. They aren't throwing into Big Ten coverage and much tighter windows.

Daniels has significant mechanical issues, especially a looping throwing motion. Maye has TERRIBLE footwork and had terrible accuracy issues this past season. Penix has a terrible arm angle that simply is almost impossible to make work in the NFL (he throws the ball basically sidearm on every delivery).

The issues that McCarthy has with mechanics are minor and very fixable. I think Maye's footwork can be fixed too but more difficult.

Daniels mechanics are a concern, but he consistently hit tight window throws outside the numbers 20+ yards downfield. Some beautiful back shoulder fades to Nabers downfield. He has elite arm talent.

You’re knocking Maye for footwork. We are talking arm talent here. You and I both know footwork is one of the easiest things to correct, and once done, the accuracy issues will dissipate.

Several QBs in the NFL have been successful with bad arm angles. You like Rivers arm angles?

[witljon]

You keep saying “best arm talent” in the draft. Where are you basing that? I’d argue Daniels, Maye, and Penix have better arm talent.

No way. They aren't throwing into Big Ten coverage and much tighter windows.

Daniels has significant mechanical issues, especially a looping throwing motion. Maye has TERRIBLE footwork and had terrible accuracy issues this past season. Penix has a terrible arm angle that simply is almost impossible to make work in the NFL (he throws the ball basically sidearm on every delivery).

The issues that McCarthy has with mechanics are minor and very fixable. I think Maye's footwork can be fixed too but more difficult.

Daniels mechanics are a concern, but he consistently hit tight window throws outside the numbers 20+ yards downfield. Some beautiful back shoulder fades to Nabers downfield. He has elite arm talent.

You’re knocking Maye for footwork. We are talking arm talent here. You and I both know footwork is one of the easiest things to correct, and once done, the accuracy issues will dissipate.

Several QBs in the NFL have been successful with bad arm angles. You like Rivers arm angles?

Daniels did not exactly look like an accurate passer in the game I watched him, but I only seen him in one game. And if he’s going to be the second QB selected, I don’t think his mechanics are a concern.