What about Drake Maye?

[Beef Supreme]

Fine. Rain on the parade Beef!

It feels more and more likely that the Pats take Maye and we trade up for McCarthy. I was just trying to find reasons why they would trade down with us.

I feel like Maye will struggle in NE just like Mac Jones did. They are putting the cart before the carriage and probably setting Maye up for failure. Meanwhile we end up with JJ and take years grooming him to be viable.

No to say being picked by the Patriots is a death sentence like going to the Bears or Panthers would be, but Maye will be rushed out and set up to fail. Here he would get to marinate and learn the game with less pressure.

In one of these threads I linked an article from NE sports media about why they should NOT take a QB (Maye or otherwise) and build up their roster. It was just an opinion piece, but it made the same argument you are making.

It’s not insanity to assert that New England’s roster is not suited to draft a top QB yet and Minnesota’s is. There’s a reason a number of pundits are saying the best QB coming out of this draft will be the one the Vikings pick.

It’s a very good argument, and one that was made at the beginning stages of the path to the draft, but QB hysteria is real, and there are no guarantees that NE will be drafting this high in a 3 deep QB draft again. There has been no reports of them considering moving. In fact, it’s been dead silent from all top 3 teams, right?

This is a no guarantees business.


There has been nothing official, but Kraft did say that trading down “might” be the best thing for the patriots.


Outside of Caleb Williams going one, we have assumptions and educated guesses, but nothing certain at all and that’s what makes it fun. In 8 days, some of this ore-draft chatter will come to fruition and some will not.

[Offsides 97 defense]

I hope we get Maye. That is my relational about why the Pats would pass him up.

I don’t like 2 firsts for JJ McCarthy. But I feel like someone will take him before 11 if we are sitting there.

If we got #23 and don’t get Maye it feels like kind of a failure. Is McCarty better than next year’s crop? Should we trade for a first from a team from next year?

I guess I just wish we did this more. We have never taken a quarterback higher than 11 in our history. For Teams at the top this is their second time in the last few years… I wish we had this many shots at the best ones instead of praying for a miracle that the 3rd best falls to us.

I hope we get Maye as well. I would be happy with any of the top four quarterbacks, even McCarthy. As long as this organization takes a swing, I love the direction.

I just don't understand bits coming in here and trashing everyone's opinion claiming they are "in the know" when it comes to this player or that, then get all worked up when people fire back and fuck with them in the same manner. Imagine having over 50,000 posts in this place. Not as a good poster like beef and others, but as a bit.

[weimy froob]

In one of these threads I linked an article from NE sports media about why they should NOT take a QB (Maye or otherwise) and build up their roster. It was just an opinion piece, but it made the same argument you are making.

It’s not insanity to assert that New England’s roster is not suited to draft a top QB yet and Minnesota’s is. There’s a reason a number of pundits are saying the best QB coming out of this draft will be the one the Vikings pick.

It’s a very good argument, and one that was made at the beginning stages of the path to the draft, but QB hysteria is real, and there are no guarantees that NE will be drafting this high in a 3 deep QB draft again. There has been no reports of them considering moving. In fact, it’s been dead silent from all top 3 teams, right?

This is a no guarantees business.


There has been nothing official, but Kraft did say that trading down “might” be the best thing for the patriots.


Outside of Caleb Williams going one, we have assumptions and educated guesses, but nothing certain at all and that’s what makes it fun. In 8 days, some of this ore-draft chatter will come to fruition and some will not.

if i was the GM of the patriots you'd have to make an offer that i couldn't refuse. two number ones this year (11 and 23) and one next year is one that i could easily refuse. make me an offer.

[Da Gas Man's Ghost]

Didn’t they sign Osborn so we’d get an extra 3rd comp pick? They have to justify this trade to their fans as well. Getting 3 firsts and a 3rd would make their fan base happy. I agree they wanted Daniels as that was the report a few months ago. Mac Jones was a better prospect and he didn’t work out. Taking the 3rd best QB again for them might not be as appealing.

Also, that 1st round pick next year coupled with their own could get them back to the top in next year’s draft.

If the Pats take Maye and don’t take our picks it would not be a the smart move. The fans would like it, which their owner confirmed, but all those picks would let them build back up fast. They could then take Nix at 11 for now. Or McCarthy.

I won’t be bummed if we end up with McCarthy though. He still might be good. But outside of Daniels or Williams there isn’t a day 1 starting QB on the draft. Is Maye worth it? Are we desperate?

I don’t mind trading the picks. It is a king’s ransom, but who’s to say we don’t end up with busts anyway?

Part of the issue is that we don’t take more quarterbacks higher in the draft. The teams at the top all have taken top quarterbacks recently.

Is your opinion colored by your personal opinion of Maye's future prospects? (not that it means that you are wrong and you might be perfectly accurate about Maye)

I hope we get Maye. That is my relational about why the Pats would pass him up.

I don’t like 2 firsts for JJ McCarthy. But I feel like someone will take him before 11 if we are sitting there.

If we got #23 and don’t get Maye it feels like kind of a failure. Is McCarty better than next year’s crop? Should we trade for a first from a team from next year?

I guess I just wish we did this more. We have never taken a quarterback higher than 11 in our history. For Teams at the top this is their second time in the last few years… I wish we had this many shots at the best ones instead of praying for a miracle that the 3rd best falls to us.

Gotcha. I hope we get Maye too.

[Beef Supreme]

It’s a very good argument, and one that was made at the beginning stages of the path to the draft, but QB hysteria is real, and there are no guarantees that NE will be drafting this high in a 3 deep QB draft again. There has been no reports of them considering moving. In fact, it’s been dead silent from all top 3 teams, right?

This is a no guarantees business.


There has been nothing official, but Kraft did say that trading down “might” be the best thing for the patriots.


Outside of Caleb Williams going one, we have assumptions and educated guesses, but nothing certain at all and that’s what makes it fun. In 8 days, some of this ore-draft chatter will come to fruition and some will not.

if i was the GM of the patriots you'd have to make an offer that i couldn't refuse. two number ones this year (11 and 23) and one next year is one that i could easily refuse. make me an offer.

Any offer can be refused. 3 #1s is a very reasonable offer.

[cunningham]

He played for Alabama! He was throwing to Jalen Waddle and Devonta Smith! He had Alex Leatherwood and Landon Dickerson on his line! He was handing off to Najee Harris!

Tanner Morgan could have good stats with that support.

Fine. Rain on the parade Beef!

It feels more and more likely that the Pats take Maye and we trade up for McCarthy. I was just trying to find reasons why they would trade down with us.

I feel like Maye will struggle in NE just like Mac Jones did. They are putting the cart before the carriage and probably setting Maye up for failure. Meanwhile we end up with JJ and take years grooming him to be viable.

No to say being picked by the Patriots is a death sentence like going to the Bears or Panthers would be, but Maye will be rushed out and set up to fail. Here he would get to marinate and learn the game with less pressure.

In one of these threads I linked an article from NE sports media about why they should NOT take a QB (Maye or otherwise) and build up their roster. It was just an opinion piece, but it made the same argument you are making.

It’s not insanity to assert that New England’s roster is not suited to draft a top QB yet and Minnesota’s is. There’s a reason a number of pundits are saying the best QB coming out of this draft will be the one the Vikings pick.

I read the same article I think and was basically paraphrasing the only little gleams of hope I've seen out there. I said it in another thread, but just wait 3 years until Maye fails in NE and we might be able to get him for a 6th rounder. I have some hope that KOC can work some magic with Darnold too, but his handling of Dobbs has made me a bit more leery. Then there was the whole Hall and Mullens fiascos to end the season.

I like our quarterback room and hold out some hope, but as the days approach I feel like the Pats will take Maye.

[weimy froob]

This is a no guarantees business.


There has been nothing official, but Kraft did say that trading down “might” be the best thing for the patriots.


Outside of Caleb Williams going one, we have assumptions and educated guesses, but nothing certain at all and that’s what makes it fun. In 8 days, some of this ore-draft chatter will come to fruition and some will not.

if i was the GM of the patriots you'd have to make an offer that i couldn't refuse. two number ones this year (11 and 23) and one next year is one that i could easily refuse. make me an offer.

Any offer can be refused. 3 #1s is a very reasonable offer.

not good enough to my way of thinking. my guess it wouldn't be to yours if you were the new england GM either. you can build around your potential franchise QB easier than finding one once you feel that your team is built up enough to be able to use one. i've posted this before--but you can sit the QB for the year while you get more pieces in place. or depending on the offensive line play you can find time for him to play later in the year. either garbage time--or late season starts.

[cunningham]

I hope we get Maye. That is my relational about why the Pats would pass him up.

I don’t like 2 firsts for JJ McCarthy. But I feel like someone will take him before 11 if we are sitting there.

If we got #23 and don’t get Maye it feels like kind of a failure. Is McCarty better than next year’s crop? Should we trade for a first from a team from next year?

I guess I just wish we did this more. We have never taken a quarterback higher than 11 in our history. For Teams at the top this is their second time in the last few years… I wish we had this many shots at the best ones instead of praying for a miracle that the 3rd best falls to us.

I hope we get Maye as well. I would be happy with any of the top four quarterbacks, even McCarthy. As long as this organization takes a swing, I love the direction.

I just don't understand bits coming in here and trashing everyone's opinion claiming they are "in the know" when it comes to this player or that, then get all worked up when people fire back and fuck with them in the same manner. Imagine having over 50,000 posts in this place. Not as a good poster like beef and others, but as a bit.

There has to be some entertainment here between the chest pumping. If you know it is a bit then just take what he posts with a grain of salt.

If DH is the same as the ones on the old boards it would be awful to listen to anything he says. That DH was the biggest TJack homer to ever live. I would not want any quarterback he would promote. If you are talking about Sergeant Rubetube, he is a funny guy and makes this place tolerable and light. Without him it would just be one big measuring contest here.

I want Maye, I'd love Daniels and believe he will have success in the league, but I could settle for JJ McCarthy if we can utilize his strengths. I fear he isn't a KOC kind of QB though.

The mock I read this morning had us taking Maye in round 1 and Penix in round 2 after trading down. Too ballsy for this organization, but Washington did something similar. Had they just kept Cousins and paid him they wouldn't have tanked out.

So if Daniels worked out maybe we will also see our fortunes change in about a decade!

[mlhouse]

I hope we get Maye. That is my relational about why the Pats would pass him up.

I don’t like 2 firsts for JJ McCarthy. But I feel like someone will take him before 11 if we are sitting there.

If we got #23 and don’t get Maye it feels like kind of a failure. Is McCarty better than next year’s crop? Should we trade for a first from a team from next year?

I guess I just wish we did this more. We have never taken a quarterback higher than 11 in our history. For Teams at the top this is their second time in the last few years… I wish we had this many shots at the best ones instead of praying for a miracle that the 3rd best falls to us.

I hope we get Maye as well. I would be happy with any of the top four quarterbacks, even McCarthy. As long as this organization takes a swing, I love the direction.

I just don't understand bits coming in here and trashing everyone's opinion claiming they are "in the know" when it comes to this player or that, then get all worked up when people fire back and fuck with them in the same manner. Imagine having over 50,000 posts in this place. Not as a good poster like beef and others, but as a bit.

There has to be some entertainment here between the chest pumping. If you know it is a bit then just take what he posts with a grain of salt.

If DH is the same as the ones on the old boards it would be awful to listen to anything he says. That DH was the biggest TJack homer to ever live. I would not want any quarterback he would promote. If you are talking about Sergeant Rubetube, he is a funny guy and makes this place tolerable and light. Without him it would just be one big measuring contest here.

I want Maye, I'd love Daniels and believe he will have success in the league, but I could settle for JJ McCarthy if we can utilize his strengths. I fear he isn't a KOC kind of QB though.

The mock I read this morning had us taking Maye in round 1 and Penix in round 2 after trading down. Too ballsy for this organization, but Washington did something similar. Had they just kept Cousins and paid him they wouldn't have tanked out.

So if Daniels worked out maybe we will also see our fortunes change in about a decade!

McCarthy is FAR from settling and frankly, if you actually analyze Maye and McCarthy it is hard to justify a position that ranks Maye ahead of McCarthy. Maye just lacked consistency all season (in fact, he played a bit worse when they added a high quality receiver) and really struggled with his accuracy. There are things to like about both guys for sure. And each has weaknesses. Both are justifiable top 5 picks in the NFL draft. Both can be full franchise QBs leading teams to winning seasons and deep into the playoffs. Both could suck in the NFL.

When it comes down to it, if the Vikings actually put themselves in a position to have a choice, it will literally come down to something similar to dating: the one that made the best first impression will be the choice (and I think that will be the case for all the teams selecting QB after Williams and Daniels). And that first impression could potentially swing Washington for Maye or McCarthy.

This is were I think the NFL would benefit from having a true minor league system that they drafted players from vs. drafting "amateur" college players. Instead of playing NCAA football, kids would enter into a minor league system with different tiers (similar to baseball minor leagues). The rules would be NFL rules. They would play with NFL playbooks. And the competition would be much higher level and more consistent.

But that will never be.

[weimy froob]

i guess the caveat on washington or new england trading out of their position is the grades they have on these QBs. if they don't have much of a difference between them then trading out and taking one at 11 would make sense. i doubt that is how they have them graded out though.

[mlhouse]

i guess the caveat on washington or new england trading out of their position is the grades they have on these QBs. if they don't have much of a difference between them then trading out and taking one at 11 would make sense. i doubt that is how they have them graded out though.

Yeah. All three teams at the top of the 2024 draft dumped their 2023 starting QB. What does that tell you? TO me that means they are taking the TOP quarterback on their board at their picks in the draft.

Maybe if you have a real (seemingly) outlier position and have lets say Bo Nix as your top QB on the board, how far down are you willing to move down and lose the guy you have rated as the best prospect?

[minnemike]

if i was the GM of the patriots you'd have to make an offer that i couldn't refuse. two number ones this year (11 and 23) and one next year is one that i could easily refuse. make me an offer.

Any offer can be refused. 3 #1s is a very reasonable offer.

not good enough to my way of thinking. my guess it wouldn't be to yours if you were the new england GM either. you can build around your potential franchise QB easier than finding one once you feel that your team is built up enough to be able to use one. i've posted this before--but you can sit the QB for the year while you get more pieces in place. or depending on the offensive line play you can find time for him to play later in the year. either garbage time--or late season starts.

The most any team other than MN can offer is a 1st this year and then one in '25 and then '26.

MN having two firsts this year is a big deal. Remember to value picks one round lower for each year ahead. MN's two firsts this year could be valued similar to three from another team.

You may hear otherwise in smokescreens and whatnot, but I think MN is definitely in the driver's seat compared to any other team that will have to compile something really huge to outbid them. IF other teams do not want to do that then the two firsts this season that MN is offering (plus maybe some garnish) is likely better than other teams.

The main worry here is if a team like AZ or LA doesnt want to fall to 11 with MN compared to 8th with NYG as an example. In this case, MN might have to throw in more if a team like NYG really wants to sell the farm. AZ or LA might just want a top 2 WR as well and not trade at all.

[cunningham]

I hope we get Maye as well. I would be happy with any of the top four quarterbacks, even McCarthy. As long as this organization takes a swing, I love the direction.

I just don't understand bits coming in here and trashing everyone's opinion claiming they are "in the know" when it comes to this player or that, then get all worked up when people fire back and fuck with them in the same manner. Imagine having over 50,000 posts in this place. Not as a good poster like beef and others, but as a bit.

There has to be some entertainment here between the chest pumping. If you know it is a bit then just take what he posts with a grain of salt.

If DH is the same as the ones on the old boards it would be awful to listen to anything he says. That DH was the biggest TJack homer to ever live. I would not want any quarterback he would promote. If you are talking about Sergeant Rubetube, he is a funny guy and makes this place tolerable and light. Without him it would just be one big measuring contest here.

I want Maye, I'd love Daniels and believe he will have success in the league, but I could settle for JJ McCarthy if we can utilize his strengths. I fear he isn't a KOC kind of QB though.

The mock I read this morning had us taking Maye in round 1 and Penix in round 2 after trading down. Too ballsy for this organization, but Washington did something similar. Had they just kept Cousins and paid him they wouldn't have tanked out.

So if Daniels worked out maybe we will also see our fortunes change in about a decade!

McCarthy is FAR from settling and frankly, if you actually analyze Maye and McCarthy it is hard to justify a position that ranks Maye ahead of McCarthy. Maye just lacked consistency all season (in fact, he played a bit worse when they added a high quality receiver) and really struggled with his accuracy. There are things to like about both guys for sure. And each has weaknesses. Both are justifiable top 5 picks in the NFL draft. Both can be full franchise QBs leading teams to winning seasons and deep into the playoffs. Both could suck in the NFL.

When it comes down to it, if the Vikings actually put themselves in a position to have a choice, it will literally come down to something similar to dating: the one that made the best first impression will be the choice (and I think that will be the case for all the teams selecting QB after Williams and Daniels). And that first impression could potentially swing Washington for Maye or McCarthy.

This is were I think the NFL would benefit from having a true minor league system that they drafted players from vs. drafting "amateur" college players. Instead of playing NCAA football, kids would enter into a minor league system with different tiers (similar to baseball minor leagues). The rules would be NFL rules. They would play with NFL playbooks. And the competition would be much higher level and more consistent.

But that will never be.

I trust your evaluation over DH's hatred of JJ McCarthy. I liked Daniels and I am not totally sold on Caleb Williams. I guess for the Bears maybe 3rd try will be a charm this time after their history of first round busts.

I totally agree on needing to maybe go to the hockey model for football. Or the Baseball model. Today's NFL is difficult for developing quarterbacks - especially when you add in all the union rules. The transfer portal sure has changed things, but there has to be a better way to develop quarterbacks. The other issue is that with film study playing quarterback in today's NFL has way more complexity than it did just a few years ago. Bradford was an example of teams finding his weaknesses on film and then just shutting him down to where he became totally ineffective. TJack was the same way while here. Hell, Dobbs went from the Passtraunat to just the "not..."

We are kind of giving up on Hall and Darnold, but either one could be our Purdy. We might trade the farm like SF did for Lance and then find that Darnold with his more recent development is better. Although, Hall looked totally inept when he got the start last season. Mullens is expendable.

Fans today want a guy to come out of college and be Tom Brady. If he isn't then the team trades him for scraps in a short time. I think teams give up on quarterbacks way too quickly and don't do enough to support them. Hopefully we are the outlier..

[mlhouse]

I trust your evaluation over DH's hatred of JJ McCarthy. I liked Daniels and I am not totally sold on Caleb Williams. I guess for the Bears maybe 3rd try will be a charm this time after their history of first round busts.

I totally agree on needing to maybe go to the hockey model for football. Or the Baseball model. Today's NFL is difficult for developing quarterbacks - especially when you add in all the union rules. The transfer portal sure has changed things, but there has to be a better way to develop quarterbacks. The other issue is that with film study playing quarterback in today's NFL has way more complexity than it did just a few years ago. Bradford was an example of teams finding his weaknesses on film and then just shutting him down to where he became totally ineffective. TJack was the same way while here. Hell, Dobbs went from the Passtraunat to just the "not..."

We are kind of giving up on Hall and Darnold, but either one could be our Purdy. We might trade the farm like SF did for Lance and then find that Darnold with his more recent development is better. Although, Hall looked totally inept when he got the start last season. Mullens is expendable.

Fans today want a guy to come out of college and be Tom Brady. If he isn't then the team trades him for scraps in a short time. I think teams give up on quarterbacks way too quickly and don't do enough to support them. Hopefully we are the outlier..

You can go back and look at my evaluations of players, especially the quarterbacks. DH brings up Kurt Warner. I'll put my track record on evaluating quarterbacks against Kurt Warner's 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year.

Here is my evaluation of Zack WIlson well before the draft:

I have watched several games of Zach Wilson now and I do not think he is a first round quarterback.

He has all kinds of intangibles. Solid athlete with good movement in the pocket. He can get the ball off from all kinds of weird throwing angles and arm slots.

He has a high completion this season, 74.6% but BYU plays a much less competitive schedule than a quartrback in the SEC or Big Ten does. He does have a lot of drops (more on that in a second) but a lot of his completions are bubble screens and short flips. His 2020 schedule so far is Navy, Army (ppd), Louisiana Tech, Troy St, UT-San Antonio, Houston, Texas St, and Western Kentucky. This coming Saturday they play their only ranked team in Boise St.

His major problem is arm strength and poor footwork. A lot of passes he completes are not well thrown balls. There are a lot of back shoulder and receiver coming back on underthrown balls. His ball flutters and while I get touch, he takes so much off of the ball sometimes it takes too long for it to get to his receiver who loses concentration on the ball because he knows the defender is closing. He really struggles throwing the ball into tight windows that he would need to do at the next level and he really struggles with accuracy throwing to his right.

You could work on his footwork to help his velocity, but so much of his game is razzle dazzle improvisation I don't think it would matter. He is loose with the ball, carrying it too low in his drop or roll out which helps him get the ball out side-armed or the other improvised throws he makes but hurts him in his delivery when he needs to make standard throws, leading to innaccuracy, short throws, high throws, and a much longer release than necessary. Because his receivers are much better than the defensive backs they play against (this Dax Milne guy reminds me of Adam Thielen) he completes more of these bad passes than he deserves.

I am not certain of the 6-3, 210 he is listed at either.

Right now, I see a college RPO flinger who has a high football IQ, good athleticism, solid leadership, elite prep effort and the type of playmaker that can make something out of nothing at the college level. But I also see a quarterback who plays against lesser competition who cannot adequately make the throws needed for a quarterback in the NFL. I think the expectations for Wilson should be a backup/fringe starter in the NFL. Give him time with the NFL playbook and he might be one of those backups that can start games, not embarrass the team and has enough heart and moxy that he might even win games here and there with his sheer will power. Case Keenum. Matt Moore. Ryan Fitzpatrick. That type of level of QB which has value in the NFL, but not the kind of expected value I would want in investing a first round draft pick.

It might be the case that a team takes the shot on those intangibles. And maybe they have the right offensive scheme that fits his style and he becomes successful in the NFL. That is possible. But I dont think it is enough to draft him high in the upcoming draft.


Most people can probably write that Wilson evaluation up TODAY after watching him on Sundays for the past few years, but not in November before the April draft. Warner loved Wilson. And Mac Jones.

I've missed players. I thought Kellen Mond would be a much better NFL player, BUT I THOUGHT HE WAS A 3rd ROUND PICK. Everyone sees things in prospects that sometimes makes you like them.

While the Vikings have to be trying hard to trade up, and they might even reach for a quarterback if they can't, there are many scenarios in which Darnold, Hall, and Mullens are the quarterbacks we start preseason with. I will hope for the best for the development of all three.

[weimy froob]

Any offer can be refused. 3 #1s is a very reasonable offer.

not good enough to my way of thinking. my guess it wouldn't be to yours if you were the new england GM either. you can build around your potential franchise QB easier than finding one once you feel that your team is built up enough to be able to use one. i've posted this before--but you can sit the QB for the year while you get more pieces in place. or depending on the offensive line play you can find time for him to play later in the year. either garbage time--or late season starts.

The most any team other than MN can offer is a 1st this year and then one in '25 and then '26.

MN having two firsts this year is a big deal. Remember to value picks one round lower for each year ahead. MN's two firsts this year could be valued similar to three from another team.

You may hear otherwise in smokescreens and whatnot, but I think MN is definitely in the driver's seat compared to any other team that will have to compile something really huge to outbid them. IF other teams do not want to do that then the two firsts this season that MN is offering (plus maybe some garnish) is likely better than other teams.

The main worry here is if a team like AZ or LA doesnt want to fall to 11 with MN compared to 8th with NYG as an example. In this case, MN might have to throw in more if a team like NYG really wants to sell the farm. AZ or LA might just want a top 2 WR as well and not trade at all.

i was specifically thinking of new england. i think that would be enough compensation for the chargers pick.

[cunningham]

I trust your evaluation over DH's hatred of JJ McCarthy. I liked Daniels and I am not totally sold on Caleb Williams. I guess for the Bears maybe 3rd try will be a charm this time after their history of first round busts.

I totally agree on needing to maybe go to the hockey model for football. Or the Baseball model. Today's NFL is difficult for developing quarterbacks - especially when you add in all the union rules. The transfer portal sure has changed things, but there has to be a better way to develop quarterbacks. The other issue is that with film study playing quarterback in today's NFL has way more complexity than it did just a few years ago. Bradford was an example of teams finding his weaknesses on film and then just shutting him down to where he became totally ineffective. TJack was the same way while here. Hell, Dobbs went from the Passtraunat to just the "not..."

We are kind of giving up on Hall and Darnold, but either one could be our Purdy. We might trade the farm like SF did for Lance and then find that Darnold with his more recent development is better. Although, Hall looked totally inept when he got the start last season. Mullens is expendable.

Fans today want a guy to come out of college and be Tom Brady. If he isn't then the team trades him for scraps in a short time. I think teams give up on quarterbacks way too quickly and don't do enough to support them. Hopefully we are the outlier..

You can go back and look at my evaluations of players, especially the quarterbacks. DH brings up Kurt Warner. I'll put my track record on evaluating quarterbacks against Kurt Warner's 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year.

Here is my evaluation of Zack WIlson well before the draft:

I have watched several games of Zach Wilson now and I do not think he is a first round quarterback.

He has all kinds of intangibles. Solid athlete with good movement in the pocket. He can get the ball off from all kinds of weird throwing angles and arm slots.

He has a high completion this season, 74.6% but BYU plays a much less competitive schedule than a quartrback in the SEC or Big Ten does. He does have a lot of drops (more on that in a second) but a lot of his completions are bubble screens and short flips. His 2020 schedule so far is Navy, Army (ppd), Louisiana Tech, Troy St, UT-San Antonio, Houston, Texas St, and Western Kentucky. This coming Saturday they play their only ranked team in Boise St.

His major problem is arm strength and poor footwork. A lot of passes he completes are not well thrown balls. There are a lot of back shoulder and receiver coming back on underthrown balls. His ball flutters and while I get touch, he takes so much off of the ball sometimes it takes too long for it to get to his receiver who loses concentration on the ball because he knows the defender is closing. He really struggles throwing the ball into tight windows that he would need to do at the next level and he really struggles with accuracy throwing to his right.

You could work on his footwork to help his velocity, but so much of his game is razzle dazzle improvisation I don't think it would matter. He is loose with the ball, carrying it too low in his drop or roll out which helps him get the ball out side-armed or the other improvised throws he makes but hurts him in his delivery when he needs to make standard throws, leading to innaccuracy, short throws, high throws, and a much longer release than necessary. Because his receivers are much better than the defensive backs they play against (this Dax Milne guy reminds me of Adam Thielen) he completes more of these bad passes than he deserves.

I am not certain of the 6-3, 210 he is listed at either.

Right now, I see a college RPO flinger who has a high football IQ, good athleticism, solid leadership, elite prep effort and the type of playmaker that can make something out of nothing at the college level. But I also see a quarterback who plays against lesser competition who cannot adequately make the throws needed for a quarterback in the NFL. I think the expectations for Wilson should be a backup/fringe starter in the NFL. Give him time with the NFL playbook and he might be one of those backups that can start games, not embarrass the team and has enough heart and moxy that he might even win games here and there with his sheer will power. Case Keenum. Matt Moore. Ryan Fitzpatrick. That type of level of QB which has value in the NFL, but not the kind of expected value I would want in investing a first round draft pick.

It might be the case that a team takes the shot on those intangibles. And maybe they have the right offensive scheme that fits his style and he becomes successful in the NFL. That is possible. But I dont think it is enough to draft him high in the upcoming draft.


Most people can probably write that Wilson evaluation up TODAY after watching him on Sundays for the past few years, but not in November before the April draft. Warner loved Wilson. And Mac Jones.

I've missed players. I thought Kellen Mond would be a much better NFL player, BUT I THOUGHT HE WAS A 3rd ROUND PICK. Everyone sees things in prospects that sometimes makes you like them.

While the Vikings have to be trying hard to trade up, and they might even reach for a quarterback if they can't, there are many scenarios in which Darnold, Hall, and Mullens are the quarterbacks we start preseason with. I will hope for the best for the development of all three.

That is a great write up. Mond was a great prospect, but Rick liked him because he had Ponder's coach. He also was the top recruit in high school.

What would you do then between trading 3 firsts and a 3rd for Maye, our two firsts this year for McCarthy, or Penix at 11?

[Beef Supreme]

if i was the GM of the patriots you'd have to make an offer that i couldn't refuse. two number ones this year (11 and 23) and one next year is one that i could easily refuse. make me an offer.

Any offer can be refused. 3 #1s is a very reasonable offer.

not good enough to my way of thinking. my guess it wouldn't be to yours if you were the new england GM either. you can build around your potential franchise QB easier than finding one once you feel that your team is built up enough to be able to use one. i've posted this before--but you can sit the QB for the year while you get more pieces in place. or depending on the offensive line play you can find time for him to play later in the year. either garbage time--or late season starts.

If I’m in love with Maye, it’s probably not enough. But if I’m not in love with him, it’s a sweet deal.

[cunningham]

Any offer can be refused. 3 #1s is a very reasonable offer.

not good enough to my way of thinking. my guess it wouldn't be to yours if you were the new england GM either. you can build around your potential franchise QB easier than finding one once you feel that your team is built up enough to be able to use one. i've posted this before--but you can sit the QB for the year while you get more pieces in place. or depending on the offensive line play you can find time for him to play later in the year. either garbage time--or late season starts.

If I’m in love with Maye, it’s probably not enough. But if I’m not in love with him, it’s a sweet deal.

Doesn’t it feel like the Pats are gonna trade with us? Or am I just trying to will it to happen?

We see what we want to believe…

[mlhouse]

I trust your evaluation over DH's hatred of JJ McCarthy. I liked Daniels and I am not totally sold on Caleb Williams. I guess for the Bears maybe 3rd try will be a charm this time after their history of first round busts.

I totally agree on needing to maybe go to the hockey model for football. Or the Baseball model. Today's NFL is difficult for developing quarterbacks - especially when you add in all the union rules. The transfer portal sure has changed things, but there has to be a better way to develop quarterbacks. The other issue is that with film study playing quarterback in today's NFL has way more complexity than it did just a few years ago. Bradford was an example of teams finding his weaknesses on film and then just shutting him down to where he became totally ineffective. TJack was the same way while here. Hell, Dobbs went from the Passtraunat to just the "not..."

We are kind of giving up on Hall and Darnold, but either one could be our Purdy. We might trade the farm like SF did for Lance and then find that Darnold with his more recent development is better. Although, Hall looked totally inept when he got the start last season. Mullens is expendable.

Fans today want a guy to come out of college and be Tom Brady. If he isn't then the team trades him for scraps in a short time. I think teams give up on quarterbacks way too quickly and don't do enough to support them. Hopefully we are the outlier..

You can go back and look at my evaluations of players, especially the quarterbacks. DH brings up Kurt Warner. I'll put my track record on evaluating quarterbacks against Kurt Warner's 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year.

Here is my evaluation of Zack WIlson well before the draft:

I have watched several games of Zach Wilson now and I do not think he is a first round quarterback.

He has all kinds of intangibles. Solid athlete with good movement in the pocket. He can get the ball off from all kinds of weird throwing angles and arm slots.

He has a high completion this season, 74.6% but BYU plays a much less competitive schedule than a quartrback in the SEC or Big Ten does. He does have a lot of drops (more on that in a second) but a lot of his completions are bubble screens and short flips. His 2020 schedule so far is Navy, Army (ppd), Louisiana Tech, Troy St, UT-San Antonio, Houston, Texas St, and Western Kentucky. This coming Saturday they play their only ranked team in Boise St.

His major problem is arm strength and poor footwork. A lot of passes he completes are not well thrown balls. There are a lot of back shoulder and receiver coming back on underthrown balls. His ball flutters and while I get touch, he takes so much off of the ball sometimes it takes too long for it to get to his receiver who loses concentration on the ball because he knows the defender is closing. He really struggles throwing the ball into tight windows that he would need to do at the next level and he really struggles with accuracy throwing to his right.

You could work on his footwork to help his velocity, but so much of his game is razzle dazzle improvisation I don't think it would matter. He is loose with the ball, carrying it too low in his drop or roll out which helps him get the ball out side-armed or the other improvised throws he makes but hurts him in his delivery when he needs to make standard throws, leading to innaccuracy, short throws, high throws, and a much longer release than necessary. Because his receivers are much better than the defensive backs they play against (this Dax Milne guy reminds me of Adam Thielen) he completes more of these bad passes than he deserves.

I am not certain of the 6-3, 210 he is listed at either.

Right now, I see a college RPO flinger who has a high football IQ, good athleticism, solid leadership, elite prep effort and the type of playmaker that can make something out of nothing at the college level. But I also see a quarterback who plays against lesser competition who cannot adequately make the throws needed for a quarterback in the NFL. I think the expectations for Wilson should be a backup/fringe starter in the NFL. Give him time with the NFL playbook and he might be one of those backups that can start games, not embarrass the team and has enough heart and moxy that he might even win games here and there with his sheer will power. Case Keenum. Matt Moore. Ryan Fitzpatrick. That type of level of QB which has value in the NFL, but not the kind of expected value I would want in investing a first round draft pick.

It might be the case that a team takes the shot on those intangibles. And maybe they have the right offensive scheme that fits his style and he becomes successful in the NFL. That is possible. But I dont think it is enough to draft him high in the upcoming draft.


Most people can probably write that Wilson evaluation up TODAY after watching him on Sundays for the past few years, but not in November before the April draft. Warner loved Wilson. And Mac Jones.

I've missed players. I thought Kellen Mond would be a much better NFL player, BUT I THOUGHT HE WAS A 3rd ROUND PICK. Everyone sees things in prospects that sometimes makes you like them.

While the Vikings have to be trying hard to trade up, and they might even reach for a quarterback if they can't, there are many scenarios in which Darnold, Hall, and Mullens are the quarterbacks we start preseason with. I will hope for the best for the development of all three.

That is a great write up. Mond was a great prospect, but Rick liked him because he had Ponder's coach. He also was the top recruit in high school.

What would you do then between trading 3 firsts and a 3rd for Maye, our two firsts this year for McCarthy, or Penix at 11?

First, I actually have a preference for McCarthy over Maye. It’s not a strong preference but still a preference.

Second while I would draft panic im not drafting him at 11.

The Vikings decision is economic game theory in action. Ignore the names for a moment or just put your own preferred player in.

Their options are trade up to guarantee your preferred player.


Trade up to guarantee a group of players.

Take a risk and trade up lower in top 10.

Take bigger risk in trading up lower in draft l.

My position is I would draft either McCarthy or maye and retain some flexibility.

[Beef Supreme]

not good enough to my way of thinking. my guess it wouldn't be to yours if you were the new england GM either. you can build around your potential franchise QB easier than finding one once you feel that your team is built up enough to be able to use one. i've posted this before--but you can sit the QB for the year while you get more pieces in place. or depending on the offensive line play you can find time for him to play later in the year. either garbage time--or late season starts.

If I’m in love with Maye, it’s probably not enough. But if I’m not in love with him, it’s a sweet deal.

Doesn’t it feel like the Pats are gonna trade with us? Or am I just trying to will it to happen?

We see what we want to believe…

There’s a lot of chatter about it. There’s enough signs pointing to the Vikes interest in Maye. We hired his high school coach to be our QB coach. What Maye is seems to be prototypical for the QB O’Connell wants for his offense. We had Kraft say trading back might be in the best interests of the team. The Pats are currently a really bad roster for a rookie QB. The Vikings have a really good roster for a rookie QB. The Vikings have a young offensive coach looking for his young QB. The Patriots have a young defensive coach likely looking to build an elite D. And let’s not discount what Maye and his representation want and will push for behind the scenes. I don’t know how much of a factor that is or what his preference is, though check out this tweet for speculation as to what that would be:



But this is all circumstantial. None of it is proof or a direct clear link or statement of direction by either the Vikes or Patriots. But we wouldn’t expect either to give a clear statement of intent at this time

There’s a lot of logical reasons for it to happen. That doesn’t mean it will happen. But it does mean it’s a little more than just hope. It could happen. There are real reasons why it would make sense for all around. It shouldn’t surprise anyone if it does.

[Beef Supreme]

More non-binding circumstantial evidence that could mean everything or nothing.

[cunningham]

More non-binding circumstantial evidence that could mean everything or nothing.

The Giants? I don’t really see it because you would have a tough locker room.

This morning everything on social media is about Kiper saying we will trade 11, 23, and next year’s first to the Chargers for McCarthy.

That seems too steep. Next year’s first is too high in my opinion.

[minnemike]

More non-binding circumstantial evidence that could mean everything or nothing.

IF they like Penix then this is more likely vs a trade with AZ who really just want to trade down and still get a top 2 WR. At that point, the price tag will be the decider and whether next year's first has to go. Everybody could be happy here with MN getting Maye, NYG trading up with SD to get MCCarthy and NE getting Penix at 11.

[Small Hands]

More non-binding circumstantial evidence that could mean everything or nothing.

Steam building that the Giants are becoming more open to talk trades to move up for a QB. Gonna be hard to out bid the team with the 6th pick. Hope they figure it out.

[Small Hands]

More non-binding circumstantial evidence that could mean everything or nothing.

The Giants? I don’t really see it because you would have a tough locker room.

This morning everything on social media is about Kiper saying we will trade 11, 23, and next year’s first to the Chargers for McCarthy.

That seems too steep. Next year’s first is too high in my opinion.

The Giants have an out in Danny Dimes contract after this season. I was hoping they’d be dumb enough to double down on him, but it’s sounding more and more likely that they are going after one of the top 3 picks.

Milhouse might get his way in this scenario.

[weimy froob]

More non-binding circumstantial evidence that could mean everything or nothing.

The Giants? I don’t really see it because you would have a tough locker room.

This morning everything on social media is about Kiper saying we will trade 11, 23, and next year’s first to the Chargers for McCarthy.

That seems too steep. Next year’s first is too high in my opinion.

The Giants have an out in Danny Dimes contract after this season. I was hoping they’d be dumb enough to double down on him, but it’s sounding more and more likely that they are going after one of the top 3 picks.

Milhouse might get his way in this scenario.

yep. gotta believe the giants are in the market for a QB this year.

[Da Gas Man's Ghost]

More non-binding circumstantial evidence that could mean everything or nothing.

The Giants? I don’t really see it because you would have a tough locker room.

This morning everything on social media is about Kiper saying we will trade 11, 23, and next year’s first to the Chargers for McCarthy.

That seems too steep. Next year’s first is too high in my opinion.

Why is it too steep?

[cunningham]

More non-binding circumstantial evidence that could mean everything or nothing.

The Giants? I don’t really see it because you would have a tough locker room.

This morning everything on social media is about Kiper saying we will trade 11, 23, and next year’s first to the Chargers for McCarthy.

That seems too steep. Next year’s first is too high in my opinion.

Why is it too steep?

Going to #3 for Maye, who they covet, seems like a likely trade scenario with 3 #1s and maybe a #3 for a kicker (the one from Osborn, who they signed). Trading all that for McCarthy just seems like too much. No one else can offer anything close to that and I don't think McCarthy is worth mortgaging so much of the future of this team on. Although, his rookie deal allows us to sign more free agents, but anyone worth anything isn't gonna be cheap in free agency.

Outside of Mlhouse here I don't think anyone is totally sold on JJ being a top 5 pick kind of guy. I guess we can reach, but that asking price from his former coach is way higher than precedent. I'm sure Harbaugh would love all those picks, but also, it feels like he is overinflating JJ's value from the inside out. I doubt he would do us any favors being that he would be taking these picks from a guy who didn't hire him.

[cunningham]

The Giants? I don’t really see it because you would have a tough locker room.

This morning everything on social media is about Kiper saying we will trade 11, 23, and next year’s first to the Chargers for McCarthy.

That seems too steep. Next year’s first is too high in my opinion.

The Giants have an out in Danny Dimes contract after this season. I was hoping they’d be dumb enough to double down on him, but it’s sounding more and more likely that they are going after one of the top 3 picks.

Milhouse might get his way in this scenario.

yep. gotta believe the giants are in the market for a QB this year.

I know that there is the talk about the Giants' contract with Jones having an out clause, but this feels too soon for them to go quarterback. They would probably prefer to trade down with us for two first rounders. I was picking for them in our rube draft and had them take Rattler in round 2. I think they will take a quarterback, but that high in the draft would be unusual.

[Small Hands]

The Giants have an out in Danny Dimes contract after this season. I was hoping they’d be dumb enough to double down on him, but it’s sounding more and more likely that they are going after one of the top 3 picks.

Milhouse might get his way in this scenario.

yep. gotta believe the giants are in the market for a QB this year.

I know that there is the talk about the Giants' contract with Jones having an out clause, but this feels too soon for them to go quarterback. They would probably prefer to trade down with us for two first rounders. I was picking for them in our rube draft and had them take Rattler in round 2. I think they will take a quarterback, but that high in the draft would be unusual.

Lots of reports coming out that they are not hiding the fact that they are looking for their next QB. They are on the hook for $40 million this year and then they can wipe their hands of him. I could see Jones starting the season as the starter and then moving on by mid season. Just like we would do with Darnold.