The difference is that Arch Manning likely requires the #1 pick and it would likely not be traded.
We are in the posssible great position. JJ might be the second best QB prospect in this draft and yet, nobody sees him that way because he's done so little. We MIGHT be in the position to get a top prospect cheap (relatively). Or we might be drafting a bust if we took JJ.
That's what I like about JJ. He has the tools, "it" factor and is young enough that he has that upside. Outside of the top 3, he is the only one with that kind of upside. Penix or Nix are safer and probably have a higher floor but not nearly as high of an upside. (of course, "upside" in this case could really just mean "hasn't been asked to do enough so we don't know that he CAN but we also don't know that he CAN'T)
If JJ is the second best QB prospect in the draft, then he’s not a two-year project. And if he’s a two-year project, then he’s not the second best QB prospect in the draft. That’s my assertion.
I’m 100% cool drafting JJ. Even cool moving up to get him. But if he’s worth that high of a pick, he’s not a two-year project.
I agree. I think he needs a year.
(To counter your overall point, he might be a two-year project and he therefore might not be worth that high of a pick, but at the same time, he will likely be drafted that high because some GM thinks he's worth it - or will be ready sooner. Ergo, he might not be worth that high of a pick for the Vikings but if they want him, that is what he will cost. But I understand your point. If the Vikings think he will take two years, then they think he is not ready enough or shown enough.)
A) I don’t think he’s a two year project
B) Two year projects don’t get picked in the top-11 of drafts (prove that assertion wrong if you know of one)
C) Green Bay has sat their quarterbacks for two years or more, but neither Love nor Rodgers was selected in the top-11 (both in the 20s). And in Rodgers case anyway, I’m not sure he needed all that sitting time. That was Favre being Favre and holding that franchise hostage. I do think Love benefitted from the extra year. He was more of a project (and again, drafted accordingly).
“When stupidity is considered patriotism, it is unsafe to be intelligent.”
If JJ is the second best QB prospect in the draft, then he’s not a two-year project. And if he’s a two-year project, then he’s not the second best QB prospect in the draft. That’s my assertion.
I’m 100% cool drafting JJ. Even cool moving up to get him. But if he’s worth that high of a pick, he’s not a two-year project.
I agree. I think he needs a year.
(To counter your overall point, he might be a two-year project and he therefore might not be worth that high of a pick, but at the same time, he will likely be drafted that high because some GM thinks he's worth it - or will be ready sooner. Ergo, he might not be worth that high of a pick for the Vikings but if they want him, that is what he will cost. But I understand your point. If the Vikings think he will take two years, then they think he is not ready enough or shown enough.)
A) I don’t think he’s a two year project
B) Two year projects don’t get picked in the top-11 of drafts (prove that assertion wrong if you know of one)
C) Green Bay has sat their quarterbacks for two years or more, but neither Love nor Rodgers was selected in the top-11 (both in the 20s). And in Rodgers case anyway, I’m not sure he needed all that sitting time. That was Favre being Favre and holding that franchise hostage. I do think Love benefitted from the extra year. He was more of a project (and again, drafted accordingly).
You are right on all points.
I only meant that he might do even better with two years of seasoning.
besides all the other points the fan base isn't going to be patient enough to wait for a QB you might have traded up into the #5 spot to draft for two years. they're not going to be patient enough to wait one year. i'd expect to see him playing by game nine in the first year myself--if not earlier.
if somehow you're able to stay at #11 and get him there's going to be more patience with having him only playing mop up duty that first year. either/or you only need to get a second tier QB on the market to be that "bridge" guy.
(To counter your overall point, he might be a two-year project and he therefore might not be worth that high of a pick, but at the same time, he will likely be drafted that high because some GM thinks he's worth it - or will be ready sooner. Ergo, he might not be worth that high of a pick for the Vikings but if they want him, that is what he will cost. But I understand your point. If the Vikings think he will take two years, then they think he is not ready enough or shown enough.)
A) I don’t think he’s a two year project
B) Two year projects don’t get picked in the top-11 of drafts (prove that assertion wrong if you know of one)
C) Green Bay has sat their quarterbacks for two years or more, but neither Love nor Rodgers was selected in the top-11 (both in the 20s). And in Rodgers case anyway, I’m not sure he needed all that sitting time. That was Favre being Favre and holding that franchise hostage. I do think Love benefitted from the extra year. He was more of a project (and again, drafted accordingly).
You are right on all points.
I only meant that he might do even better with two years of seasoning.
Him not playing for two seasons doesn't mean necessarily he is a "two year project". That's nonsense. If you elect to run your very good QB for two more years AND address the immediate future after that now, there is nothing wrong with that. Nothing.
And no one is taking him at 11 for any other reason than we have to. If you want the guy you're going to have to take him at 11. At one point it appeared that you could trade down a little bit and then still take him but it's become clearer and clearer that they probably need to take him at 11.
He is 20 years old. That affords a lot of flexibility. Whether you sit him one or two seasons there is nothing wrong with that. The rest is just noise.
weimy froob wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2024 11:40 am
if somehow you're able to stay at #11 and get him there's going to be more patience with having him only playing mop up duty that first year. either/or you only need to get a second tier QB on the market to be that "bridge" guy.
I don't think we can be patient, weimy.
We have a lot of competition for one of the top 4 QBs.
Next year's crop doesn't look as good as this year.
We have to go for it.
This is the year to do it and Kwesi knows it because his job depends on it.
weimy froob wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2024 11:40 am
if somehow you're able to stay at #11 and get him there's going to be more patience with having him only playing mop up duty that first year. either/or you only need to get a second tier QB on the market to be that "bridge" guy.
I don't think we can be patient, weimy.
We have a lot of competition for one of the top 4 QBs.
Next year's crop doesn't look as good as this year.
We have to go for it.
This is the year to do it and Kwesi knows it because his job depends on it.
i don't think so either, butch. the trade proposal with san diego in the other thread works for me. pretty sure harrison will go #4 or earlier. you're going to get one of the four QBs--and i'd be good with either daniels or JJ.
weimy froob wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2024 11:40 am
if somehow you're able to stay at #11 and get him there's going to be more patience with having him only playing mop up duty that first year. either/or you only need to get a second tier QB on the market to be that "bridge" guy.
I don't think we can be patient, weimy.
We have a lot of competition for one of the top 4 QBs.
Next year's crop doesn't look as good as this year.
We have to go for it.
This is the year to do it and Kwesi knows it because his job depends on it.
i don't think so either, butch. the trade proposal with san diego in the other thread works for me. pretty sure harrison will go #4 or earlier. you're going to get one of the four QBs--and i'd be good with either daniels or JJ.
(To counter your overall point, he might be a two-year project and he therefore might not be worth that high of a pick, but at the same time, he will likely be drafted that high because some GM thinks he's worth it - or will be ready sooner. Ergo, he might not be worth that high of a pick for the Vikings but if they want him, that is what he will cost. But I understand your point. If the Vikings think he will take two years, then they think he is not ready enough or shown enough.)
A) I don’t think he’s a two year project
B) Two year projects don’t get picked in the top-11 of drafts (prove that assertion wrong if you know of one)
C) Green Bay has sat their quarterbacks for two years or more, but neither Love nor Rodgers was selected in the top-11 (both in the 20s). And in Rodgers case anyway, I’m not sure he needed all that sitting time. That was Favre being Favre and holding that franchise hostage. I do think Love benefitted from the extra year. He was more of a project (and again, drafted accordingly).
You are right on all points.
I only meant that he might do even better with two years of seasoning.
I hope that’s true of all of the prospects. If they do worse with seasons, they are probably going to bust.
“When stupidity is considered patriotism, it is unsafe to be intelligent.”
weimy froob wrote: ↑Sun Feb 25, 2024 11:39 am
besides all the other points the fan base isn't going to be patient enough to wait for a QB you might have traded up into the #5 spot to draft for two years. they're not going to be patient enough to wait one year. i'd expect to see him playing by game nine in the first year myself--if not earlier.
This is also true. No my main point, but it’s certainly true.
“When stupidity is considered patriotism, it is unsafe to be intelligent.”
I have watched just about every McCarthy and Maye video available online. If you actually watch McCarthy and are not impressed by his elite arm talent then you must be watching some other video.
I have not watched any highlight videos, but I watched several Michigan games. I’m not sure how many. The games I remember, Gophers, Maryland, Washington, Alabama, Ohio State, and a little of Nebraska. He seemed to hand the ball off a lot. And you can talk about footwork all you want, I think getting the ball from point A to point B is more important.
PLease. Watch the game files online. He makes NFL throws into NFL windows with NFL accuracy in every one of those games. It is actually impressive. HE reads the field incredibly well. HE makes solid progressions. He is very good in moving in the pocket and running with the ball.
I bet he does look good in highlight videos. I’m a fan that watches the games of mostly of the top college teams. I didn’t think Harbaugh put much on McCarthys shoulders. And I think I only saw LSU maybe a game and a half so I didn’t see much of Jayden Daniels, but I can say he didn’t look like a very accurate passer.
I have not watched any highlight videos, but I watched several Michigan games. I’m not sure how many. The games I remember, Gophers, Maryland, Washington, Alabama, Ohio State, and a little of Nebraska. He seemed to hand the ball off a lot. And you can talk about footwork all you want, I think getting the ball from point A to point B is more important.
PLease. Watch the game files online. He makes NFL throws into NFL windows with NFL accuracy in every one of those games. It is actually impressive. HE reads the field incredibly well. HE makes solid progressions. He is very good in moving in the pocket and running with the ball.
I bet he does look good in highlight videos. I’m a fan that watches the games of mostly of the top college teams. I didn’t think Harbaugh put much on McCarthys shoulders. And I think I only saw LSU maybe a game and a half so I didn’t see much of Jayden Daniels, but I can say he didn’t look like a very accurate passer.
I have not watched any highlight videos, but I watched several Michigan games. I’m not sure how many. The games I remember, Gophers, Maryland, Washington, Alabama, Ohio State, and a little of Nebraska. He seemed to hand the ball off a lot. And you can talk about footwork all you want, I think getting the ball from point A to point B is more important.
PLease. Watch the game files online. He makes NFL throws into NFL windows with NFL accuracy in every one of those games. It is actually impressive. HE reads the field incredibly well. HE makes solid progressions. He is very good in moving in the pocket and running with the ball.
I bet he does look good in highlight videos. I’m a fan that watches the games of mostly of the top college teams. I didn’t think Harbaugh put much on McCarthys shoulders. And I think I only saw LSU maybe a game and a half so I didn’t see much of Jayden Daniels, but I can say he didn’t look like a very accurate passer.
That's such an oversimplification. When the Paramount strength of your team is an elite defense and the best OL in the country, it's fairly easy to lean on a ball control running attack and smother teams.
JJ did pretty well when he had to end of Bama game.
PLease. Watch the game files online. He makes NFL throws into NFL windows with NFL accuracy in every one of those games. It is actually impressive. HE reads the field incredibly well. HE makes solid progressions. He is very good in moving in the pocket and running with the ball.
I bet he does look good in highlight videos. I’m a fan that watches the games of mostly of the top college teams. I didn’t think Harbaugh put much on McCarthys shoulders. And I think I only saw LSU maybe a game and a half so I didn’t see much of Jayden Daniels, but I can say he didn’t look like a very accurate passer.
That's such an oversimplification. When the Paramount strength of your team is an elite defense and the best OL in the country, it's fairly easy to lean on a ball control running attack and smother teams.
JJ did pretty well when he had to end of Bama game.
After watching a lot of game video of Michigan, their oline is significantly overrated.
I bet he does look good in highlight videos. I’m a fan that watches the games of mostly of the top college teams. I didn’t think Harbaugh put much on McCarthys shoulders. And I think I only saw LSU maybe a game and a half so I didn’t see much of Jayden Daniels, but I can say he didn’t look like a very accurate passer.
That's such an oversimplification. When the Paramount strength of your team is an elite defense and the best OL in the country, it's fairly easy to lean on a ball control running attack and smother teams.
JJ did pretty well when he had to end of Bama game.
After watching a lot of game video of Michigan, their oline is significantly overrated.
PLease. Watch the game files online. He makes NFL throws into NFL windows with NFL accuracy in every one of those games. It is actually impressive. HE reads the field incredibly well. HE makes solid progressions. He is very good in moving in the pocket and running with the ball.
I bet he does look good in highlight videos. I’m a fan that watches the games of mostly of the top college teams. I didn’t think Harbaugh put much on McCarthys shoulders. And I think I only saw LSU maybe a game and a half so I didn’t see much of Jayden Daniels, but I can say he didn’t look like a very accurate passer.
That's such an oversimplification. When the Paramount strength of your team is an elite defense and the best OL in the country, it's fairly easy to lean on a ball control running attack and smother teams.
JJ did pretty well when he had to end of Bama game.
Well, I’m still going to be convinced on JJ McCarthy.
I bet he does look good in highlight videos. I’m a fan that watches the games of mostly of the top college teams. I didn’t think Harbaugh put much on McCarthys shoulders. And I think I only saw LSU maybe a game and a half so I didn’t see much of Jayden Daniels, but I can say he didn’t look like a very accurate passer.
That's such an oversimplification. When the Paramount strength of your team is an elite defense and the best OL in the country, it's fairly easy to lean on a ball control running attack and smother teams.
JJ did pretty well when he had to end of Bama game.
Well, I’m still going to be convinced on JJ McCarthy.
cdr2529 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2024 10:01 am
If they trade up for McCarthy then I am done and this would be the dumbest trade since Herschel Walker. McCarthy was not even good with Michigan he was average.
That's such an oversimplification. When the Paramount strength of your team is an elite defense and the best OL in the country, it's fairly easy to lean on a ball control running attack and smother teams.
JJ did pretty well when he had to end of Bama game.
After watching a lot of game video of Michigan, their oline is significantly overrated.
Interesting. Why?
They allow a lot more pressure on the QB than what you are believing. The outside tackles Henderson and Barnhart are marginal NFL draft prospects with some serious pass pro issues. Their center Drake Nugent is probably a later 5th to early 6th round prospect. The guards Trevor Keegan and Zac Zinter are strong run blocking in the interior but I think a bit suspect in pass pro to good inside pass rushers. Zinter might be a mid round draft prospect but he also broke his leg late in the season. Keegan is a later round prospect. All of these guys did have significant amounts of experience though and that is one thing that drove them to the Natty.
After watching a lot of game video of Michigan, their oline is significantly overrated.
Interesting. Why?
They allow a lot more pressure on the QB than what you are believing. The outside tackles Henderson and Barnhart are marginal NFL draft prospects with some serious pass pro issues. Their center Drake Nugent is probably a later 5th to early 6th round prospect. The guards Trevor Keegan and Zac Zinter are strong run blocking in the interior but I think a bit suspect in pass pro to good inside pass rushers. Zinter might be a mid round draft prospect but he also broke his leg late in the season. Keegan is a later round prospect. All of these guys did have significant amounts of experience though and that is one thing that drove them to the Natty.
While they were pretty fantastic and run blocking and that was pretty much the point I was illustrating. And I'm not a great offensive line mind I will admit
...
They allow a lot more pressure on the QB than what you are believing. The outside tackles Henderson and Barnhart are marginal NFL draft prospects with some serious pass pro issues. Their center Drake Nugent is probably a later 5th to early 6th round prospect. The guards Trevor Keegan and Zac Zinter are strong run blocking in the interior but I think a bit suspect in pass pro to good inside pass rushers. Zinter might be a mid round draft prospect but he also broke his leg late in the season. Keegan is a later round prospect. All of these guys did have significant amounts of experience though and that is one thing that drove them to the Natty.
While they were pretty fantastic and run blocking and that was pretty much the point I was illustrating. And I'm not a great offensive line mind I will admit
...
And I have basically referred to their pass blocking, not their run blocking. McCarthy had a lot of pressure on his drop backs.
They allow a lot more pressure on the QB than what you are believing. The outside tackles Henderson and Barnhart are marginal NFL draft prospects with some serious pass pro issues. Their center Drake Nugent is probably a later 5th to early 6th round prospect. The guards Trevor Keegan and Zac Zinter are strong run blocking in the interior but I think a bit suspect in pass pro to good inside pass rushers. Zinter might be a mid round draft prospect but he also broke his leg late in the season. Keegan is a later round prospect. All of these guys did have significant amounts of experience though and that is one thing that drove them to the Natty.
While they were pretty fantastic and run blocking and that was pretty much the point I was illustrating. And I'm not a great offensive line mind I will admit
...
Michigans roster was loaded. They had a record 18 players invited to the NFL combine, including 11 offensive players and 6 offensive linemen.
