A reality check on how bad this franchise has been run

[D_H]

I’m watching the Chicago /Green Bay game and they are saying Green Bay is the youngest team in the league while the Chicago Bears the third youngest team in the league and they will both finish ahead of us this year. Ouch!!

[weimy froob]

Sergeant Rubetube has reminded us how long it's been before they've made the playoffs two years in a row. earliest that can happen now is 2025/26 season.

[Tmoney]

Well GB hasn't tanked and gotten high picks.

They hit on picks throughout the draft.

That's the difference.

They have a standard and culture.

The Vikings do not.

[Beetlejuice]

Dp

[Beetlejuice]

We know and so does the FO. All major FA signing last year were with players under 25.

/end thread

[Bob Wiley]

The Vikings haven’t been run that poorly. They go to the playoffs like every other year. Occasionally they make a deep run. They were 13 and four last year, and some of that was luck, and they were seven and 10 this year and some of that was bad luck.

[mlhouse]

Well GB hasn't tanked and gotten high picks.

They hit on picks throughout the draft.

That's the difference.

They have a standard and culture.

The Vikings do not.

Minnesota has hit on picks throughout the draft including UDFA.

The biggest mistake the Vikings did was sitting on Mike Zimmer as their head coach. They should have replaced Zimmer after the 2020 season but the fact is that is all hind sight. But the key reason should have been the defense collapsing under his control. He was the defensive guru, and was perhaps one of the top dCoordinators of his era. But he was terrible at managing a team, in game and off field. His rigid asshole behavior really hurt trying to rebuild the team with young guys.

Maybe it didn't matter, but Zimmer peaked after the first half of the 2017 playoff game vs. the Saints. Up 17-0 at half, we required a literal football miracle (Stephon Diggs, 5th round draft pick) to win that game and then Zimmer totally shit the bed against the Eagles, showing up in Phillie with a defense that was totally unprepared to play against Nick Foles.

[hategreenticemase]

Well GB hasn't tanked and gotten high picks.

They hit on picks throughout the draft.

That's the difference.

They have a standard and culture.

The Vikings do not.

Minnesota has hit on picks throughout the draft including UDFA.

The biggest mistake the Vikings did was sitting on Mike Zimmer as their head coach. They should have replaced Zimmer after the 2020 season but the fact is that is all hind sight. But the key reason should have been the defense collapsing under his control. He was the defensive guru, and was perhaps one of the top dCoordinators of his era. But he was terrible at managing a team, in game and off field. His rigid asshole behavior really hurt trying to rebuild the team with young guys.

Maybe it didn't matter, but Zimmer peaked after the first half of the 2017 playoff game vs. the Saints. Up 17-0 at half, we required a literal football miracle (Stephon Diggs, 5th round draft pick) to win that game and then Zimmer totally shit the bed against the Eagles, showing up in Phillie with a defense that was totally unprepared to play against Nick Foles.

Pretty spot on, but obviously not running Spielman out sooner killed them as well.

[mlhouse]

Well GB hasn't tanked and gotten high picks.

They hit on picks throughout the draft.

That's the difference.

They have a standard and culture.

The Vikings do not.

Minnesota has hit on picks throughout the draft including UDFA.

The biggest mistake the Vikings did was sitting on Mike Zimmer as their head coach. They should have replaced Zimmer after the 2020 season but the fact is that is all hind sight. But the key reason should have been the defense collapsing under his control. He was the defensive guru, and was perhaps one of the top dCoordinators of his era. But he was terrible at managing a team, in game and off field. His rigid asshole behavior really hurt trying to rebuild the team with young guys.

Maybe it didn't matter, but Zimmer peaked after the first half of the 2017 playoff game vs. the Saints. Up 17-0 at half, we required a literal football miracle (Stephon Diggs, 5th round draft pick) to win that game and then Zimmer totally shit the bed against the Eagles, showing up in Phillie with a defense that was totally unprepared to play against Nick Foles.

Pretty spot on, but obviously not running Spielman out sooner killed them as well.

I disagree on that because Spielman was a very solid GM. The 13-4 team was almost all from previous regime. If Cousins stays healthy this team wins 11-12 game and almost all of the talent on this team was developed in the previous regime. Spielman would have added a lot more in the 2022 draft.

[Beef Supreme]

Well GB hasn't tanked and gotten high picks.

They hit on picks throughout the draft.

That's the difference.

They have a standard and culture.

The Vikings do not.

Minnesota has hit on picks throughout the draft including UDFA.

The biggest mistake the Vikings did was sitting on Mike Zimmer as their head coach. They should have replaced Zimmer after the 2020 season but the fact is that is all hind sight. But the key reason should have been the defense collapsing under his control. He was the defensive guru, and was perhaps one of the top dCoordinators of his era. But he was terrible at managing a team, in game and off field. His rigid asshole behavior really hurt trying to rebuild the team with young guys.

Maybe it didn't matter, but Zimmer peaked after the first half of the 2017 playoff game vs. the Saints. Up 17-0 at half, we required a literal football miracle (Stephon Diggs, 5th round draft pick) to win that game and then Zimmer totally shit the bed against the Eagles, showing up in Phillie with a defense that was totally unprepared to play against Nick Foles.

Knowing what we now know, they should have replaced Zimmer when they decided to pay Kirk Cousins all that money when he wanted it reinvested in the defense. Management and coaching were no longer on the same page and it went downhill from there.


I’m not a guy who thinks we need to bottom out and be terrible to turn things around. I think 4-13 can snowball Nd you can be terrible for a long time.

But they do need to be bold about acquiring, developing, and building around their next franchise QB. If that means a big trade up, so be it. Maybe it does and maybe it doesn’t, but we need to come out of this off-season with a young, talented guy with a real shot to be our next star QB.

[hategreenticemase]

Minnesota has hit on picks throughout the draft including UDFA.

The biggest mistake the Vikings did was sitting on Mike Zimmer as their head coach. They should have replaced Zimmer after the 2020 season but the fact is that is all hind sight. But the key reason should have been the defense collapsing under his control. He was the defensive guru, and was perhaps one of the top dCoordinators of his era. But he was terrible at managing a team, in game and off field. His rigid asshole behavior really hurt trying to rebuild the team with young guys.

Maybe it didn't matter, but Zimmer peaked after the first half of the 2017 playoff game vs. the Saints. Up 17-0 at half, we required a literal football miracle (Stephon Diggs, 5th round draft pick) to win that game and then Zimmer totally shit the bed against the Eagles, showing up in Phillie with a defense that was totally unprepared to play against Nick Foles.

Pretty spot on, but obviously not running Spielman out sooner killed them as well.

I disagree on that because Spielman was a very solid GM. The 13-4 team was almost all from previous regime. If Cousins stays healthy this team wins 11-12 game and almost all of the talent on this team was developed in the previous regime. Spielman would have added a lot more in the 2022 draft.

I knew you would go there and yeah, I vehemently disagree as does virtually everyone else here. Spielman was awful the last 5 years or so and you are literally the only guy unaware of that. By the way, he is also the guy who didn't fire the guy you wanted fired 2020. So there is that also.

[mlhouse]

Well GB hasn't tanked and gotten high picks.

They hit on picks throughout the draft.

That's the difference.

They have a standard and culture.

The Vikings do not.

Minnesota has hit on picks throughout the draft including UDFA.

The biggest mistake the Vikings did was sitting on Mike Zimmer as their head coach. They should have replaced Zimmer after the 2020 season but the fact is that is all hind sight. But the key reason should have been the defense collapsing under his control. He was the defensive guru, and was perhaps one of the top dCoordinators of his era. But he was terrible at managing a team, in game and off field. His rigid asshole behavior really hurt trying to rebuild the team with young guys.

Maybe it didn't matter, but Zimmer peaked after the first half of the 2017 playoff game vs. the Saints. Up 17-0 at half, we required a literal football miracle (Stephon Diggs, 5th round draft pick) to win that game and then Zimmer totally shit the bed against the Eagles, showing up in Phillie with a defense that was totally unprepared to play against Nick Foles.

Knowing what we now know, they should have replaced Zimmer when they decided to pay Kirk Cousins all that money when he wanted it reinvested in the defense. Management and coaching were no longer on the same page and it went downhill from there.


I’m not a guy who thinks we need to bottom out and be terrible to turn things around. I think 4-13 can snowball Nd you can be terrible for a long time.

But they do need to be bold about acquiring, developing, and building around their next franchise QB. If that means a big trade up, so be it. Maybe it does and maybe it doesn’t, but we need to come out of this off-season with a young, talented guy with a real shot to be our next star QB.

I agree taht they should have fired Zimmer after the 2017 season if you put the entire idea under the hind sight microscope.

Here are two things:

a: buy low, sell high. Great advice.

b: I am not necessarily in favor of being "bold". Being bold sometimes means being stupid. Lets be smart. Lets make sure that we evaluate the QB and understand how he will fit in the current system and also what changes the current system must make to create a successful offense with him at the helm. Who knows what rumours are true, but one thing I have heard is that Daniels is the QB the VIkings covet the most. But if they set him up in a Kirk Cousins offense he will fail with certainty.

[Nightfly]

The Vikings haven’t been run that poorly. They go to the playoffs like every other year. Occasionally they make a deep run. They were 13 and four last year, and some of that was luck, and they were seven and 10 this year and some of that was bad luck.

Maybe not poorly, but certainly not at anything beyond a mediocre level. 19 seasons of the Wilf regime:

7 playoff appearances (37%) -- average would be 39%, based on the playoff-field size during that timeframe

2 NFC title-game appearances (11%) -- average would be 13%

And no need to illustrate why we're below average in accomplishments beyond those.

Even if you look at # of winning seasons, we are only a hair above average -- 9 winning, 8 losing, and 2 break-even (.500) finishes.

[Hornets]

The Vikings haven’t been run that poorly. They go to the playoffs like every other year. Occasionally they make a deep run. They were 13 and four last year, and some of that was luck, and they were seven and 10 this year and some of that was bad luck.

Maybe not poorly, but certainly not at anything beyond a mediocre level. 19 seasons of the Wilf regime:

7 playoff appearances (37%) -- average would be 39%, based on the playoff-field size during that timeframe

2 NFC title-game appearances (11%) -- average would be 13%

And no need to illustrate why we're below average in accomplishments beyond those.

Even if you look at # of winning seasons, we are only a hair above average -- 9 winning, 8 losing, and 2 break-even (.500) finishes.

Disgusting and disheartening how mediocre our team has been since the SB years. That's why a bold move or two needs to take place NOW. Qwesi is our hope and that worries me greatly...

[mlhouse]

The Vikings haven’t been run that poorly. They go to the playoffs like every other year. Occasionally they make a deep run. They were 13 and four last year, and some of that was luck, and they were seven and 10 this year and some of that was bad luck.

Maybe not poorly, but certainly not at anything beyond a mediocre level. 19 seasons of the Wilf regime:

7 playoff appearances (37%) -- average would be 39%, based on the playoff-field size during that timeframe

2 NFC title-game appearances (11%) -- average would be 13%

And no need to illustrate why we're below average in accomplishments beyond those.

Even if you look at # of winning seasons, we are only a hair above average -- 9 winning, 8 losing, and 2 break-even (.500) finishes.

Considering we haven't lucked out with one of the absolute elite QBs in the NFL, that isn't bad. The NFL has been dominated by a group of top level QBs for the past 20 years.

Through that period consider the AFC Championship game. From 2001 - 2018 Tom Brady and the Patriots reached the AFC Championship game 13 times and won 9 times. When Brady's streak was over, Patrick Mahomes and the KC Chiefs took over and have made the AFC Championship game 4 straight times 2019 - 2022. From 2001 - 2018, the only AFC Championship game that did not have at least one of Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, or Ben Roethlisberger was 2002. BRady and the Patriots ran a streak of 8 consecutive AFC Championship appearances then he made it to the Super Bowl in the NFL with Tampa. Twelve years in the AFC it was either the Patriots or the Chiefs.

While the NFC wasn't dominated quite as much, Rodgers, Brees, Favre and whomever the Niners line up at QB have been the trend. People might forget that one of my favorite players, Donovan McNabb led the Eagles to 4 consecutive Conference games 2001 - 2004.

The NFL favors the teams with these QBs adn other teams. There is no doubt about that especially after watching our 2009 season with Brett Favre were our line could basically just tackle the pass rush guys. That ended when we played the Saints and Saint Brees in the Championship game, and Hurricane Katrina you know the NFL let them win the game. Three almost consecutive bad calls: the 4th-1 leap were the runner lost control of the ball yet they gave him forward progress and the first down, the reviewed "catch", and then the infamous "PASS INTERFERENCE". FUCK THE SAINTS.

[BigInflateable]

Not to mention the brutal non calls that were committed by the Taints defense. That game was gift wrapped for them. They will also never win another one.

[cunningham]

We had three back up quarterbacks play and we still constantly had/wanted to be a super pass happy team. KOC has not been good with running the ball since he came here. No quarterback is gonna succeed if they are forced to throw this much.

[weimy froob]

it is what it is--and mediocre at best fits.

[Beef Supreme]

We had three back up quarterbacks play and we still constantly had/wanted to be a super pass happy team. KOC has not been good with running the ball since he came here. No quarterback is gonna succeed if they are forced to throw this much.

The idea that we should have relied on our potent running game is a curious one…

[salamander]

I just can't wait for the day we have a top 5 QB in the league.

[Tuck ya in]

Well GB hasn't tanked and gotten high picks.

They hit on picks throughout the draft.

That's the difference.

They have a standard and culture.

The Vikings do not.

Minnesota has hit on picks throughout the draft including UDFA.

The biggest mistake the Vikings did was sitting on Mike Zimmer as their head coach. They should have replaced Zimmer after the 2020 season but the fact is that is all hind sight. But the key reason should have been the defense collapsing under his control. He was the defensive guru, and was perhaps one of the top dCoordinators of his era. But he was terrible at managing a team, in game and off field. His rigid asshole behavior really hurt trying to rebuild the team with young guys.

Maybe it didn't matter, but Zimmer peaked after the first half of the 2017 playoff game vs. the Saints. Up 17-0 at half, we required a literal football miracle (Stephon Diggs, 5th round draft pick) to win that game and then Zimmer totally shit the bed against the Eagles, showing up in Phillie with a defense that was totally unprepared to play against Nick Foles.

Pretty spot on, but obviously not running Spielman out sooner killed them as well.

Spelman was a good GM, it's even more apparent now with watching this current joke of a GM. We would be in a better place right now if we had retained Rick. He would of took Hamilton/Davis and never made that horrific trade down for Cine, amongst many other better decisions that Kwesi has blundered.

People want to credit Kwesi on the Addison pick, but if you watch the behind the scenes draft video it's clear that KOC had to convince him to draft Jordan.....ugh.

[hategreenticemase]

Minnesota has hit on picks throughout the draft including UDFA.

The biggest mistake the Vikings did was sitting on Mike Zimmer as their head coach. They should have replaced Zimmer after the 2020 season but the fact is that is all hind sight. But the key reason should have been the defense collapsing under his control. He was the defensive guru, and was perhaps one of the top dCoordinators of his era. But he was terrible at managing a team, in game and off field. His rigid asshole behavior really hurt trying to rebuild the team with young guys.

Maybe it didn't matter, but Zimmer peaked after the first half of the 2017 playoff game vs. the Saints. Up 17-0 at half, we required a literal football miracle (Stephon Diggs, 5th round draft pick) to win that game and then Zimmer totally shit the bed against the Eagles, showing up in Phillie with a defense that was totally unprepared to play against Nick Foles.

Pretty spot on, but obviously not running Spielman out sooner killed them as well.

Spelman was a good GM, it's even more apparent now with watching this current joke of a GM. We would be in a better place right now if we had retained Rick. He would of took Hamilton/Davis and never made that horrific trade down for Cine, amongst many other better decisions that Kwesi has blundered.

People want to credit Kwesi on the Addison pick, but if you watch the behind the scenes draft video it's clear that KOC had to convince him to draft Jordan.....ugh.

I am hoping this is tongue in cheek. "Would have never made that horrific trade down for Cine". Please tell the kids you are kidding.

If you are being serious, well, you may want to revisit the last 5 years with ol RS including the decision to bring in a very expensive and good qb who had one major wart (dealing with and escaping pressure) and putting him in front of a bottom 5 OL in NFL 3 straight years.

[Tuck ya in]

Pretty spot on, but obviously not running Spielman out sooner killed them as well.

Spelman was a good GM, it's even more apparent now with watching this current joke of a GM. We would be in a better place right now if we had retained Rick. He would of took Hamilton/Davis and never made that horrific trade down for Cine, amongst many other better decisions that Kwesi has blundered.

People want to credit Kwesi on the Addison pick, but if you watch the behind the scenes draft video it's clear that KOC had to convince him to draft Jordan.....ugh.

I am hoping this is tongue in cheek. "Would have never made that horrific trade down for Cine". Please tell the kids you are kidding.

If you are being serious, well, you may want to revisit the last 5 years with ol RS including the decision to bring in a very expensive and good qb who had one major wart (dealing with and escaping pressure) and putting him in front of a bottom 5 OL in NFL 3 straight years.

I'm very serious. And I'll die on this hill, specifically with the laughable comparison with our current bum. His main weakness was never getting the oline set, I think most would agree with that. The QB pick of Ponder is always his low point, but thats the hardest position to nail down across the league, and we rarely picked in the top of the draft, (which helps). The Cousins signing was good.

But his overall body of work through the years was pretty solid. Some fans have unrealistic expectations for a GM. It's like if your not a top 5 drafter every year your just relegated to the "trash/average" category. GM's have up and down years like players, scouts, and coaches do. Who would you of wanted during his tenure that would of drafted better with mostly mid to late round picks?

If you are still bringing Spielman up right now, what the hell do you think about this current clown?

[hategreenticemase]

Spelman was a good GM, it's even more apparent now with watching this current joke of a GM. We would be in a better place right now if we had retained Rick. He would of took Hamilton/Davis and never made that horrific trade down for Cine, amongst many other better decisions that Kwesi has blundered.

People want to credit Kwesi on the Addison pick, but if you watch the behind the scenes draft video it's clear that KOC had to convince him to draft Jordan.....ugh.

I am hoping this is tongue in cheek. "Would have never made that horrific trade down for Cine". Please tell the kids you are kidding.

If you are being serious, well, you may want to revisit the last 5 years with ol RS including the decision to bring in a very expensive and good qb who had one major wart (dealing with and escaping pressure) and putting him in front of a bottom 5 OL in NFL 3 straight years.

I'm very serious. And I'll die on this hill, specifically with the laughable comparison with our current bum. His main weakness was never getting the oline set, I think most would agree with that. The QB pick of Ponder is always his low point, but thats the hardest position to nail down across the league, and we rarely picked in the top of the draft, (which helps). The Cousins signing was good.

But his overall body of work through the years was pretty solid. Some fans have unrealistic expectations for a GM. It's like if your not a top 5 drafter every year your just relegated to the "trash/average" category. GM's have up and down years like players, scouts, and coaches do. Who would you of wanted during his tenure that would of drafted better with mostly mid to late round picks?

If you are still bringing Spielman up right now, what the hell do you think about this current clown?

Yes, yes you will die on that hill. Alone, well, maybe Mlhouse will join you.

I am not willing to spend 5 mins debating RS, so all am willing to invest is the 1 min it took me to pull the top 3 picks he had the last few years and I wont even go there on Ponder, Laquon Treadwell, trading a first for Bradford or what I already said as to be honest, the argument is too absurd.

1 Mike Hughes 30 CB 6 2018 2023 0 0 0 9 71 0 0 0 Central Florida
2 Brian O'Neill 62 T 6 2018 2023 0 1 5 37 93 0 0 0 Pittsburgh
4 Jalyn Holmes
1 Garrett Bradbury 18 C 5 2019 2023 0 0 4 23 70 0 0 2 17 0 North Ca
2 Irv Smith Jr. 50 TE 4 2019 2023 0 0 0 8 49 0 0 109 973 10 Alabama
3 Alexander Mattison 102 RB 5 2019 2023 0 0 0 14 74 0 577 2346 11 99 713 6 Boise St.
4 Dru Samia 114 G 2 2019 2020 0 0 0 3 15 0 0 0 Oklahoma
1 Justin Jefferson 22 WR 4 2020 2023 1 3 3 39 59 4 7 69 0 0 11 40 1 380 5707 29 LSU
1 Jeff Gladney 31 CB 1 2020 2020 0 0 1 5 16 0 0 0 TCU
2 Ezra Cleveland 58 T 4 2020 2023 0 0 3 17 61 0 0 0 Boise St.
3 Cameron Dantzler 89 CB 4 2020 2023 0 0 2 10 37 0 0 0 Mississippi
1 Christian Darrisaw 23 OL 3 2021 2023 0 0 1 12 40 0 0 0 Virginia
3 Kellen Mond 66 QB 1 2021 2021 0 0 0 0 1 2 3 5 0 0 0 0 Texas A&M
3 Chazz Surratt 78 LB 3 2021 2023 0 0 0 1 23 0 0 0 North Carolina
3 Wyatt Davis 86 OL 2 2021 2022 0 0 0 0 9 0 0 0 Ohio St.
3 Patrick Jones II 90 DL 3 2021 2023 0 0 0 2 41 0 0 0 Pittsburgh

And Kwesi has nothing to do with RS. I think very little on him and am close to ready to move on there also. Spielman was awful the last 5 years. Period. We can agree to disagree.

[Oriole81]

Spielman has drafted 1 more murderer than Kwesi.

[Small Hands]

I am hoping this is tongue in cheek. "Would have never made that horrific trade down for Cine". Please tell the kids you are kidding.

If you are being serious, well, you may want to revisit the last 5 years with ol RS including the decision to bring in a very expensive and good qb who had one major wart (dealing with and escaping pressure) and putting him in front of a bottom 5 OL in NFL 3 straight years.

I'm very serious. And I'll die on this hill, specifically with the laughable comparison with our current bum. His main weakness was never getting the oline set, I think most would agree with that. The QB pick of Ponder is always his low point, but thats the hardest position to nail down across the league, and we rarely picked in the top of the draft, (which helps). The Cousins signing was good.

But his overall body of work through the years was pretty solid. Some fans have unrealistic expectations for a GM. It's like if your not a top 5 drafter every year your just relegated to the "trash/average" category. GM's have up and down years like players, scouts, and coaches do. Who would you of wanted during his tenure that would of drafted better with mostly mid to late round picks?

If you are still bringing Spielman up right now, what the hell do you think about this current clown?

Yes, yes you will die on that hill. Alone, well, maybe Mlhouse will join you.

I am not willing to spend 5 mins debating RS, so all am willing to invest is the 1 min it took me to pull the top 3 picks he had the last few years and I wont even go there on Ponder, Laquon Treadwell, trading a first for Bradford or what I already said as to be honest, the argument is too absurd.

1 Mike Hughes 30 CB 6 2018 2023 0 0 0 9 71 0 0 0 Central Florida
2 Brian O'Neill 62 T 6 2018 2023 0 1 5 37 93 0 0 0 Pittsburgh
4 Jalyn Holmes
1 Garrett Bradbury 18 C 5 2019 2023 0 0 4 23 70 0 0 2 17 0 North Ca
2 Irv Smith Jr. 50 TE 4 2019 2023 0 0 0 8 49 0 0 109 973 10 Alabama
3 Alexander Mattison 102 RB 5 2019 2023 0 0 0 14 74 0 577 2346 11 99 713 6 Boise St.
4 Dru Samia 114 G 2 2019 2020 0 0 0 3 15 0 0 0 Oklahoma
1 Justin Jefferson 22 WR 4 2020 2023 1 3 3 39 59 4 7 69 0 0 11 40 1 380 5707 29 LSU
1 Jeff Gladney 31 CB 1 2020 2020 0 0 1 5 16 0 0 0 TCU
2 Ezra Cleveland 58 T 4 2020 2023 0 0 3 17 61 0 0 0 Boise St.
3 Cameron Dantzler 89 CB 4 2020 2023 0 0 2 10 37 0 0 0 Mississippi
1 Christian Darrisaw 23 OL 3 2021 2023 0 0 1 12 40 0 0 0 Virginia
3 Kellen Mond 66 QB 1 2021 2021 0 0 0 0 1 2 3 5 0 0 0 0 Texas A&M
3 Chazz Surratt 78 LB 3 2021 2023 0 0 0 1 23 0 0 0 North Carolina
3 Wyatt Davis 86 OL 2 2021 2022 0 0 0 0 9 0 0 0 Ohio St.
3 Patrick Jones II 90 DL 3 2021 2023 0 0 0 2 41 0 0 0 Pittsburgh

And Kwesi has nothing to do with RS. I think very little on him and am close to ready to move on there also. Spielman was awful the last 5 years. Period. We can agree to disagree.

Slick Rick had his ups and downs. Never being able to figure out the OLine was maddening for me, and the complete breakdown in communication with HC was the death knell. O’Neil, Bustbury, JJ, and Darrisaw are all considered hits and all but Bustbury should be considered big hits. The rest of the list kinda makes me wanna puke. I still can’t believe Wyatt Davis was trash. I thought he was gonna be something good.

[hategreenticemase]

I'm very serious. And I'll die on this hill, specifically with the laughable comparison with our current bum. His main weakness was never getting the oline set, I think most would agree with that. The QB pick of Ponder is always his low point, but thats the hardest position to nail down across the league, and we rarely picked in the top of the draft, (which helps). The Cousins signing was good.

But his overall body of work through the years was pretty solid. Some fans have unrealistic expectations for a GM. It's like if your not a top 5 drafter every year your just relegated to the "trash/average" category. GM's have up and down years like players, scouts, and coaches do. Who would you of wanted during his tenure that would of drafted better with mostly mid to late round picks?

If you are still bringing Spielman up right now, what the hell do you think about this current clown?

Yes, yes you will die on that hill. Alone, well, maybe Mlhouse will join you.

I am not willing to spend 5 mins debating RS, so all am willing to invest is the 1 min it took me to pull the top 3 picks he had the last few years and I wont even go there on Ponder, Laquon Treadwell, trading a first for Bradford or what I already said as to be honest, the argument is too absurd.

1 Mike Hughes 30 CB 6 2018 2023 0 0 0 9 71 0 0 0 Central Florida
2 Brian O'Neill 62 T 6 2018 2023 0 1 5 37 93 0 0 0 Pittsburgh
4 Jalyn Holmes
1 Garrett Bradbury 18 C 5 2019 2023 0 0 4 23 70 0 0 2 17 0 North Ca
2 Irv Smith Jr. 50 TE 4 2019 2023 0 0 0 8 49 0 0 109 973 10 Alabama
3 Alexander Mattison 102 RB 5 2019 2023 0 0 0 14 74 0 577 2346 11 99 713 6 Boise St.
4 Dru Samia 114 G 2 2019 2020 0 0 0 3 15 0 0 0 Oklahoma
1 Justin Jefferson 22 WR 4 2020 2023 1 3 3 39 59 4 7 69 0 0 11 40 1 380 5707 29 LSU
1 Jeff Gladney 31 CB 1 2020 2020 0 0 1 5 16 0 0 0 TCU
2 Ezra Cleveland 58 T 4 2020 2023 0 0 3 17 61 0 0 0 Boise St.
3 Cameron Dantzler 89 CB 4 2020 2023 0 0 2 10 37 0 0 0 Mississippi
1 Christian Darrisaw 23 OL 3 2021 2023 0 0 1 12 40 0 0 0 Virginia
3 Kellen Mond 66 QB 1 2021 2021 0 0 0 0 1 2 3 5 0 0 0 0 Texas A&M
3 Chazz Surratt 78 LB 3 2021 2023 0 0 0 1 23 0 0 0 North Carolina
3 Wyatt Davis 86 OL 2 2021 2022 0 0 0 0 9 0 0 0 Ohio St.
3 Patrick Jones II 90 DL 3 2021 2023 0 0 0 2 41 0 0 0 Pittsburgh

And Kwesi has nothing to do with RS. I think very little on him and am close to ready to move on there also. Spielman was awful the last 5 years. Period. We can agree to disagree.

Slick Rick had his ups and downs. Never being able to figure out the OLine was maddening for me, and the complete breakdown in communication with HC was the death knell. O’Neil, Bustbury, JJ, and Darrisaw are all considered hits and all but Bustbury should be considered big hits. The rest of the list kinda makes me wanna puke. I still can’t believe Wyatt Davis was trash. I thought he was gonna be something good.

Agree with all that. Look at those last 3 high 3rd round picks, including Mond who was essentially a 2nd. Holy fuck.

[Tuck ya in]

I am hoping this is tongue in cheek. "Would have never made that horrific trade down for Cine". Please tell the kids you are kidding.

If you are being serious, well, you may want to revisit the last 5 years with ol RS including the decision to bring in a very expensive and good qb who had one major wart (dealing with and escaping pressure) and putting him in front of a bottom 5 OL in NFL 3 straight years.

I'm very serious. And I'll die on this hill, specifically with the laughable comparison with our current bum. His main weakness was never getting the oline set, I think most would agree with that. The QB pick of Ponder is always his low point, but thats the hardest position to nail down across the league, and we rarely picked in the top of the draft, (which helps). The Cousins signing was good.

But his overall body of work through the years was pretty solid. Some fans have unrealistic expectations for a GM. It's like if your not a top 5 drafter every year your just relegated to the "trash/average" category. GM's have up and down years like players, scouts, and coaches do. Who would you of wanted during his tenure that would of drafted better with mostly mid to late round picks?

If you are still bringing Spielman up right now, what the hell do you think about this current clown?

Yes, yes you will die on that hill. Alone, well, maybe Mlhouse will join you.

I am not willing to spend 5 mins debating RS, so all am willing to invest is the 1 min it took me to pull the top 3 picks he had the last few years and I wont even go there on Ponder, Laquon Treadwell, trading a first for Bradford or what I already said as to be honest, the argument is too absurd.

1 Mike Hughes 30 CB 6 2018 2023 0 0 0 9 71 0 0 0 Central Florida
2 Brian O'Neill 62 T 6 2018 2023 0 1 5 37 93 0 0 0 Pittsburgh
4 Jalyn Holmes
1 Garrett Bradbury 18 C 5 2019 2023 0 0 4 23 70 0 0 2 17 0 North Ca
2 Irv Smith Jr. 50 TE 4 2019 2023 0 0 0 8 49 0 0 109 973 10 Alabama
3 Alexander Mattison 102 RB 5 2019 2023 0 0 0 14 74 0 577 2346 11 99 713 6 Boise St.
4 Dru Samia 114 G 2 2019 2020 0 0 0 3 15 0 0 0 Oklahoma
1 Justin Jefferson 22 WR 4 2020 2023 1 3 3 39 59 4 7 69 0 0 11 40 1 380 5707 29 LSU
1 Jeff Gladney 31 CB 1 2020 2020 0 0 1 5 16 0 0 0 TCU
2 Ezra Cleveland 58 T 4 2020 2023 0 0 3 17 61 0 0 0 Boise St.
3 Cameron Dantzler 89 CB 4 2020 2023 0 0 2 10 37 0 0 0 Mississippi
1 Christian Darrisaw 23 OL 3 2021 2023 0 0 1 12 40 0 0 0 Virginia
3 Kellen Mond 66 QB 1 2021 2021 0 0 0 0 1 2 3 5 0 0 0 0 Texas A&M
3 Chazz Surratt 78 LB 3 2021 2023 0 0 0 1 23 0 0 0 North Carolina
3 Wyatt Davis 86 OL 2 2021 2022 0 0 0 0 9 0 0 0 Ohio St.
3 Patrick Jones II 90 DL 3 2021 2023 0 0 0 2 41 0 0 0 Pittsburgh

And Kwesi has nothing to do with RS. I think very little on him and am close to ready to move on there also. Spielman was awful the last 5 years. Period. We can agree to disagree.

Kwesi has everything to do with Spielman. He is his failed successor, and it's natural to compare those things in sports debates. If we're in the minority of opinions on this site regarding GM's, I'll take that.....likely means we're dead on right about it.

[hategreenticemase]

I'm very serious. And I'll die on this hill, specifically with the laughable comparison with our current bum. His main weakness was never getting the oline set, I think most would agree with that. The QB pick of Ponder is always his low point, but thats the hardest position to nail down across the league, and we rarely picked in the top of the draft, (which helps). The Cousins signing was good.

But his overall body of work through the years was pretty solid. Some fans have unrealistic expectations for a GM. It's like if your not a top 5 drafter every year your just relegated to the "trash/average" category. GM's have up and down years like players, scouts, and coaches do. Who would you of wanted during his tenure that would of drafted better with mostly mid to late round picks?

If you are still bringing Spielman up right now, what the hell do you think about this current clown?

Yes, yes you will die on that hill. Alone, well, maybe Mlhouse will join you.

I am not willing to spend 5 mins debating RS, so all am willing to invest is the 1 min it took me to pull the top 3 picks he had the last few years and I wont even go there on Ponder, Laquon Treadwell, trading a first for Bradford or what I already said as to be honest, the argument is too absurd.

1 Mike Hughes 30 CB 6 2018 2023 0 0 0 9 71 0 0 0 Central Florida
2 Brian O'Neill 62 T 6 2018 2023 0 1 5 37 93 0 0 0 Pittsburgh
4 Jalyn Holmes
1 Garrett Bradbury 18 C 5 2019 2023 0 0 4 23 70 0 0 2 17 0 North Ca
2 Irv Smith Jr. 50 TE 4 2019 2023 0 0 0 8 49 0 0 109 973 10 Alabama
3 Alexander Mattison 102 RB 5 2019 2023 0 0 0 14 74 0 577 2346 11 99 713 6 Boise St.
4 Dru Samia 114 G 2 2019 2020 0 0 0 3 15 0 0 0 Oklahoma
1 Justin Jefferson 22 WR 4 2020 2023 1 3 3 39 59 4 7 69 0 0 11 40 1 380 5707 29 LSU
1 Jeff Gladney 31 CB 1 2020 2020 0 0 1 5 16 0 0 0 TCU
2 Ezra Cleveland 58 T 4 2020 2023 0 0 3 17 61 0 0 0 Boise St.
3 Cameron Dantzler 89 CB 4 2020 2023 0 0 2 10 37 0 0 0 Mississippi
1 Christian Darrisaw 23 OL 3 2021 2023 0 0 1 12 40 0 0 0 Virginia
3 Kellen Mond 66 QB 1 2021 2021 0 0 0 0 1 2 3 5 0 0 0 0 Texas A&M
3 Chazz Surratt 78 LB 3 2021 2023 0 0 0 1 23 0 0 0 North Carolina
3 Wyatt Davis 86 OL 2 2021 2022 0 0 0 0 9 0 0 0 Ohio St.
3 Patrick Jones II 90 DL 3 2021 2023 0 0 0 2 41 0 0 0 Pittsburgh

And Kwesi has nothing to do with RS. I think very little on him and am close to ready to move on there also. Spielman was awful the last 5 years. Period. We can agree to disagree.

Kwesi has everything to do with Spielman. He is his failed successor, and it's natural to compare those things in sports debates. If we're in the minority of opinions on this site regarding GM's, I'll take that.....likely means we're dead on right about it.

Yeah, ok.

[cunningham]

We had three back up quarterbacks play and we still constantly had/wanted to be a super pass happy team. KOC has not been good with running the ball since he came here. No quarterback is gonna succeed if they are forced to throw this much.

The idea that we should have relied on our potent running game is a curious one…

We should have, but we didn't have one. The teams that were able to salvage their seasons after their quarterbacks went down had running games. You cannot win in December and the playoff if you don't have a potent run game. Which is why we were so screwed.

Having Mullens throw for 400 yards every week with his propensity for turnovers isn't gonna win games.

I guess you give KOC a pass for us not having a good running game? I see it as a problem his tenure that got even worse this season than last. If he doesn't fix it next season we won't go anywhere either. Imagine throwing some rookie out there with Mattison.

A big reason why we stunk even before Kirk went down is that KOC relies on the pass too much. As I've said many times, the best season we had here with Kirk was when Stefanski was here and relied more on the run.

Low and behold look who has a back up quarterback and is in the playoffs and who is not. Coincidence?