***OFFICIAL NFL Draft Weekend Superthread!!!***

[somuchyummy]

going into that final round how we sat - and then coming out of it and beyond with mcbride, pace and carter. nice, nice unexpected gifts.

Carter was overrated the entire draft process timeline. Frankly, he was a very late-UDFA the entire time.

said virtually no scouting service. Zierlein had him 5th to 6th, draft Buzz 2nd round, Draft network ranked him 195 overall and the Mock Draft Database suggested 3rd rounder. your retort will be that he went undrafted. but there are a lot of reasons why someone goes UDFA. as one obvious thing: 7 rounds is an arbitrary number. The NFL could just as well say 5 rounds or 8 rounds, and then the list of undrafted/drafted players would fluctuate accordingly. So because a guy goes undrafted IMO is no lock that he can't make it in the league. And there will be plenty of drafted players as well who get cut and won't make it.

first off, and this isn't a dig (i enjoy your analyses) - it's just a reality check for you - your opinions while valid are just yours and are seriously no more valid than the draft sites and scouting services that you sometimes disparage. if i got in an elevator with a bunch of those guys and they commented on a player, and i spoke up and said "ah, i disagree - mlhouse has a different opinion about this player" - they'd ask me who mlhouse was, i'd say just a guy who likes to watch football, and they'd laugh. they do this for a living, i don't think you do - meaning they have more access to players, coaches, the combine, stats, video, etc. and they are all football minds or they wouldn't be doing it. your opinions, while valid, have less behind them to go on than what the sites have.

and all of them were very open about the warts in Carter's game and his need to add strength. obviously, he didn't have his ducks in a row because he went undrafted. the other EDGEs on the board have warts as well. but going undrafted - and being undraftable - are two entirely different things. and Carter was definitely draftable. scouts wouldn't have spent so much time on him if he wasn't. he's been scrutinized plenty by a load of football minds. here's a quote by one:

“You won’t even recognize him in three years with how much his body will change when he’s on an NFL team. He’s going to be a lot thicker and stronger than what you see on tape right now.” -- Scouting director for AFC team

Carter was being looked at by teams that needed to add an OLB/EDGE. So that eliminates some teams. Other teams filled that need earlier in the draft with a higher ranked guy. that eliminates some teams. it's very possible that a number of these "eliminated" teams - on their EDGE rating sheets - had Carter ranked higher than some of the players that eventually got picked elsewhere. but they weren't in position to select him for the reasons i stated above. Mike Morris got taken at 151 by the Seahawks. i'm sure the short list Seattle drew up for the available EDGEs for that pick included Carter. they took Morris instead. anyway, a lot of that sort of juggling happens - and can cause guys to drop.

anyway, enough of this. bottom line: we have a need to add an EDGE. we didn't get one in the draft. Carter II signed with us as a UDFA and we should be happy about that. no capital spent. we have the chance to kick the tires on a player who has been part of the discussion for the last year and who plays a position of need for us. it's a big yay.

[Beef Supreme]

going into that final round how we sat - and then coming out of it and beyond with mcbride, pace and carter. nice, nice unexpected gifts.

Carter was overrated the entire draft process timeline. Frankly, he was a very late-UDFA the entire time.

said virtually no scouting service. Zierlein had him 5th to 6th, draft Buzz 2nd round, Draft network ranked him 195 overall and the Mock Draft Database suggested 3rd rounder. your retort will be that he went undrafted. but there are a lot of reasons why someone goes UDFA. as one obvious thing: 7 rounds is an arbitrary number. The NFL could just as well say 5 rounds or 8 rounds, and then the list of undrafted/drafted players would fluctuate accordingly. So because a guy goes undrafted IMO is no lock that he can't make it in the league. And there will be plenty of drafted players as well who get cut and won't make it.

first off, and this isn't a dig (i enjoy your analyses) - it's just a reality check for you - your opinions while valid are just yours and are seriously no more valid than the draft sites and scouting services that you sometimes disparage. if i got in an elevator with a bunch of those guys and they commented on a player, and i spoke up and said "ah, i disagree - mlhouse has a different opinion about this player" - they'd ask me who mlhouse was, i'd say just a guy who likes to watch football, and they'd laugh. they do this for a living, i don't think you do - meaning they have more access to players, coaches, the combine, stats, video, etc. and they are all football minds or they wouldn't be doing it. your opinions, while valid, have less behind them to go on than what the sites have.

and all of them were very open about the warts in Carter's game and his need to add strength. obviously, he didn't have his ducks in a row because he went undrafted. the other EDGEs on the board have warts as well. but going undrafted - and being undraftable - are two entirely different things. and Carter was definitely draftable. scouts wouldn't have spent so much time on him if he wasn't. he's been scrutinized plenty by a load of football minds. here's a quote by one:

“You won’t even recognize him in three years with how much his body will change when he’s on an NFL team. He’s going to be a lot thicker and stronger than what you see on tape right now.” -- Scouting director for AFC team

Carter was being looked at by teams that needed to add an OLB/EDGE. So that eliminates some teams. Other teams filled that need earlier in the draft with a higher ranked guy. that eliminates some teams. it's very possible that a number of these "eliminated" teams - on their EDGE rating sheets - had Carter ranked higher than some of the others that eventually got picked. but they weren't in position to select him for the reasons i stated above. Mike Morris got taken at 151 by the Seahawks. i'm sure the short list Seattle drew up for the available EDGEs for that pick included Carter. they took Morris instead. anyway, a lot of that sort of juggling happens - and can cause guys to drop.

anyway, enough of this. bottom line: we have a need to add an EDGE. we didn't get one in the draft. Carter II signed with us as a UDFA and we should be happy about that. no capital spent. we have the chance to kick the tires on a player who has been part of the discussion for the last year and who plays a position of need for us. it's a big yay.

I think Carter is a good udfa signing. I also think he was a “draftable” talent. But obviously, he went undrafted. The scoop seems to be he could potentially work himself into a player, but isn’t ready. Sure. He’ll have to take the PS-deep depth-fringe starter-starter path if he’s going to be anything in the league.

Problem is, since EDGE is a need and is pretty much a perpetual need for all teams, he’s always going to have more talented and more ballyhooed prospects in front of him that he’s going to have to leapfrog. We’re never going into a draft saying we don’t need EDGE because we have Carter II on our practice squad. It’s possible to overcome that. That’s exactly what Adam Thielen did with Laquan Treadwell, but the odds are against him.

[Oriole81]

My Take


snip

*Blackmon/Ward: I understand the supposed fit, but doesn't seem to be conventionally good value considering who else was on the board. I'm fine to defer to them and see how things play out, but let's also not forget that Kwesi loved Evans last year and took him over Tariq Woolen, so they haven't earned blind trust either with DBs.

I feel 100% better that Flores is advocating Kwesi on D this year vs. Donatell.

Yes and no.
I certainly trust him more than Donatell, but that still doesn’t mean perceived value is right. If he really is that great at identifying and developing mid round DBs, then couldn’t he have gotten someone like Ward later and instead used that earlier pick on someone like Abdullah or Henry, who went with the next two picks?

Follow up question to that then, we all assume Flores is going to be here short term as he’ll get another HC job soon. Are these guys gonna be just as good if someone else is coaching them?

[Beef Supreme]

I do have a “big picture” gripe with this draft. This isn’t about player X over player Y. All that stuff shakes out over time.


My gripe is that it’s very easy to say that the weakness of this team last year was the LoS. We lost up front to good teams a lot, on both sides of the ball. And we did almost nothing to address that the entire off-season. We have to hope that Ingram takes a big step forward on offense and Flores’ scheme fixes a lot on defense, because we didn’t address the talent much at all, outside of a 5th round DT.


It’s easy to argue that the team overall may have been better served with a “blood and guts” draft full of slobberknockers and hogs rather than a skill player draft. That’s not a knock on any of the guys we did draft. But I’m not sure we adequately addressed the #1 reason we struggled against the better teams in the league. I’m not sure we stand any better chance of a deep playoff run this year as we did last. I’ll enjoy watching the new toys go this year, and getting Cine and Booth back hopefully healthy will be fun too. But every time a high-end DL makes Kirk’s life miserable and every time we get gashed in the run game, I’ll wonder if we had the right priorities this off-season.

[Offsides 97 defense]

I do have a “big picture” gripe with this draft. This isn’t about player X over player Y. All that stuff shakes out over time.


My gripe is that it’s very easy to say that the weakness of this team last year was the LoS. We lost up front to good teams a lot, on both sides of the ball. And we did almost nothing to address that the entire off-season. We have to hope that Ingram takes a big step forward on offense and Flores’ scheme fixes a lot on defense, because we didn’t address the talent much at all, outside of a 5th round DT.


It’s easy to argue that the team overall may have been better served with a “blood and guts” draft full of slobberknockers and hogs rather than a skill player draft. That’s not a knock on any of the guys we did draft. But I’m not sure we adequately addressed the #1 reason we struggled against the better teams in the league. I’m not sure we stand any better chance of a deep playoff run this year as we did last. I’ll enjoy watching the new toys go this year, and getting Cine and Booth back hopefully healthy will be fun too. But every time a high-end DL makes Kirk’s life miserable and every time we get gashed in the run game, I’ll wonder if we had the right priorities this off-season.

Good take. Defensive linemen and linebackers are much easier to find, trade, and pay for than skill-position players in free agency. This staff probably has a plan to trade for someone.

[Beef Supreme]

I do have a “big picture” gripe with this draft. This isn’t about player X over player Y. All that stuff shakes out over time.


My gripe is that it’s very easy to say that the weakness of this team last year was the LoS. We lost up front to good teams a lot, on both sides of the ball. And we did almost nothing to address that the entire off-season. We have to hope that Ingram takes a big step forward on offense and Flores’ scheme fixes a lot on defense, because we didn’t address the talent much at all, outside of a 5th round DT.


It’s easy to argue that the team overall may have been better served with a “blood and guts” draft full of slobberknockers and hogs rather than a skill player draft. That’s not a knock on any of the guys we did draft. But I’m not sure we adequately addressed the #1 reason we struggled against the better teams in the league. I’m not sure we stand any better chance of a deep playoff run this year as we did last. I’ll enjoy watching the new toys go this year, and getting Cine and Booth back hopefully healthy will be fun too. But every time a high-end DL makes Kirk’s life miserable and every time we get gashed in the run game, I’ll wonder if we had the right priorities this off-season.

Good take. Defensive linemen and linebackers are much easier to find, trade, and pay for than skill-position players in free agency. This staff probably has a plan to trade for someone.

Maybe they do. There is a long time between now and September.


I guess I should also add it’s very possible that Ingram does take a step forward this year and that Flores does fix a lot with his scheme. We’d better hope so, right?

[Offsides 97 defense]

I do have a “big picture” gripe with this draft. This isn’t about player X over player Y. All that stuff shakes out over time.


My gripe is that it’s very easy to say that the weakness of this team last year was the LoS. We lost up front to good teams a lot, on both sides of the ball. And we did almost nothing to address that the entire off-season. We have to hope that Ingram takes a big step forward on offense and Flores’ scheme fixes a lot on defense, because we didn’t address the talent much at all, outside of a 5th round DT.


It’s easy to argue that the team overall may have been better served with a “blood and guts” draft full of slobberknockers and hogs rather than a skill player draft. That’s not a knock on any of the guys we did draft. But I’m not sure we adequately addressed the #1 reason we struggled against the better teams in the league. I’m not sure we stand any better chance of a deep playoff run this year as we did last. I’ll enjoy watching the new toys go this year, and getting Cine and Booth back hopefully healthy will be fun too. But every time a high-end DL makes Kirk’s life miserable and every time we get gashed in the run game, I’ll wonder if we had the right priorities this off-season.

Good take. Defensive linemen and linebackers are much easier to find, trade, and pay for than skill-position players in free agency. This staff probably has a plan to trade for someone.

Maybe they do. There is a long time between now and September.


I guess I should also add it’s very possible that Ingram does take a step forward this year and that Flores does fix a lot with his scheme. We’d better hope so, right?

I'm concerned with linebacker more than anything—particularly the inside. Hicks is whatever to me, Asamoah I'm excited about but unproven, and that's it.

[Beef Supreme]

Good take. Defensive linemen and linebackers are much easier to find, trade, and pay for than skill-position players in free agency. This staff probably has a plan to trade for someone.

Maybe they do. There is a long time between now and September.


I guess I should also add it’s very possible that Ingram does take a step forward this year and that Flores does fix a lot with his scheme. We’d better hope so, right?

I'm concerned with linebacker more than anything—particularly the inside. Hicks is whatever to me, Asamoah I'm excited about but unproven, and that's it.

Yeah. It’s funny. Positions like RB and ILB are so devalued today because the drop off of a 2nd round guy and a 6th round guy isn’t that significant. But it’s still super important to have them. Our RB room is pretty good, with or without Cook, but our LB corps is shit. Even Asamoah is unproven and likely to go through some growing pains, even if he does hit.

[DMB]

My Take


snip

*Blackmon/Ward: I understand the supposed fit, but doesn't seem to be conventionally good value considering who else was on the board. I'm fine to defer to them and see how things play out, but let's also not forget that Kwesi loved Evans last year and took him over Tariq Woolen, so they haven't earned blind trust either with DBs.

I feel 100% better that Flores is advocating Kwesi on D this year vs. Donatell.

Yes and no.
I certainly trust him more than Donatell, but that still doesn’t mean perceived value is right. If he really is that great at identifying and developing mid round DBs, then couldn’t he have gotten someone like Ward later and instead used that earlier pick on someone like Abdullah or Henry, who went with the next two picks?

Follow up question to that then, we all assume Flores is going to be here short term as he’ll get another HC job soon. Are these guys gonna be just as good if someone else is coaching them?

Not sure on the who/when to pick-just seems like once you get into the 4th-7th rounds you start taking "your" guys and I'm thinking Ward was one. I don't know really but I guess we'll find out-heck I would've been OK with Pace Jr taken in 4th.

I guess if he's here short term it likely means he was successful and I would think a successor would have a better time with a good D vs. a bad D.

[DMB]

I'm concerned with linebacker more than anything—particularly the inside. Hicks is whatever to me, Asamoah I'm excited about but unproven, and that's it.

Me too-I'm alarmed at their lack of action in that dept. O-line too-but probably to a lesser degree. Pace Jr addition helps a little.

[hategreenticemase]

Maybe they do. There is a long time between now and September.


I guess I should also add it’s very possible that Ingram does take a step forward this year and that Flores does fix a lot with his scheme. We’d better hope so, right?

I'm concerned with linebacker more than anything—particularly the inside. Hicks is whatever to me, Asamoah I'm excited about but unproven, and that's it.

Yeah. It’s funny. Positions like RB and ILB are so devalued today because the drop off of a 2nd round guy and a 6th round guy isn’t that significant. But it’s still super important to have them. Our RB room is pretty good, with or without Cook, but our LB corps is shit. Even Asamoah is unproven and likely to go through some growing pains, even if he does hit.

You guys are having a nice back and forth and I agree with both your sentiments.

Here is my bigger picture issue complaints.

1. I don't know what the plan is at qb. It appeared strongly that Cousins is here 1 more stop gap go for it year. That was my assumption. I slightly, very slightly, disagreed - to me if rumors are true and was willing to take slightly discounted deal then extend him. That is what I'd have done. Beefie, I think you disagree, and that's fair, but what is bewildering to me is, wtf is the plan? ALL signs pointed to the plan is for us to go get their guy and having KDC one more season and then transition. Now? I have no damn idea what the plan is.

They had easy options to go get a sliding top 5 guy or to wait and pursue Hooker who many also feel has a shot. To me, i'd have traded back as far as I could in first and taken Levis. Or traded up to get Hooker. Now, if they didn't feel strong enough about either, ok, I trust you, but those were always the two possible guys you could get so again I ask, wtf was the plan???? Do they think cousins, when he will now have us by the balls and was slightly jilted by us not extending him, will offer a discount next time?

I would have taken the 20m or we could have saved and went and got a blue chip los guy. But I'm not mad we didn't do that - I'm more not getting what the hell the plan is. We are in a corner now unless this byu kid becomes real good real fast.

2. Everytime I think about Garret fn Bradbury, I get hot in the face. I don't understand why you bring back a guy you know can't play. Then I see what Pocic signed for, and it makes me even more angry. Beef, you are right I think Ingram will be better this year, but again what difference is that going to make when our pocket is being collapsed against the elite defensive tackles because our little flyweight fucker can't hold up against any type of strong bull rush???

3. Many here lauded Hicks signing as good because it was cheap purchase etc. I could not disagree more. I have no interest in a guy who I know who fucking sucks. Yeah I get the known quantity deal the devil you know versus the devil you don't know, here's my point - to me this guy is worse at his position than Bradbury is at his position. I don't see what he brings to the table whatsoever. But I defer to Flores, there must be something that he liked I don't know.

[Beef Supreme]

I have no idea what the QB plan is either. I assume they’ll address it next off-season. But the timing is rough. If they want to resign Kirk, that will cost them more than it would have if they’d just done that this year. And they’ll have to make that call before the draft. Do they let him go elsewhere? Then they’re over a gun barrel to get a guy in the draft. If they resign Kirk to a multi-year extension, what if a guy falls to them in the draft? Do they pass because they just resigned Kirk?

If you can get Kirk to sign year-to-year, then fine. But Kirk wants a three-year commitment, from what I understand.

They’re in a rough spot at the position for the future.

[Hornets]

I have no idea what the QB plan is either. I assume they’ll address it next off-season. But the timing is rough. If they want to resign Kirk, that will cost them more than it would have if they’d just done that this year. And they’ll have to make that call before the draft. Do they let him go elsewhere? Then they’re over a gun barrel to get a guy in the draft. If they resign Kirk to a multi-year extension, what if a guy falls to them in the draft? Do they pass because they just resigned Kirk?

If you can get Kirk to sign year-to-year, then fine. But Kirk wants a three-year commitment, from what I understand.

They’re in a rough spot at the position for the future.

Kirk is a very smart businessman and has played his strategy to perfection through the years. Yes, the Vikes might very well have no viable option other than extending Kirk and he most likely would not give any kind of hometown discount unless he salivates at the thought of throwing to the 3 headed monster of JJ, TJ, and Adi. Guess we have to trust in Qwesi to figure this out.

[Beef Supreme]

I have no idea what the QB plan is either. I assume they’ll address it next off-season. But the timing is rough. If they want to resign Kirk, that will cost them more than it would have if they’d just done that this year. And they’ll have to make that call before the draft. Do they let him go elsewhere? Then they’re over a gun barrel to get a guy in the draft. If they resign Kirk to a multi-year extension, what if a guy falls to them in the draft? Do they pass because they just resigned Kirk?

If you can get Kirk to sign year-to-year, then fine. But Kirk wants a three-year commitment, from what I understand.

They’re in a rough spot at the position for the future.

Kirk is a very smart businessman and has played his strategy to perfection through the years. Yes, the Vikes might very well have no viable option other than extending Kirk and he most likely would not give any kind of hometown discount unless he salivates at the thought of throwing to the 3 headed monster of JJ, TJ, and Adi. Guess we have to trust in Qwesi to figure this out.

Kirk has made himself a lot of money betting on himself. Good for him.

[Hornets]

I have no idea what the QB plan is either. I assume they’ll address it next off-season. But the timing is rough. If they want to resign Kirk, that will cost them more than it would have if they’d just done that this year. And they’ll have to make that call before the draft. Do they let him go elsewhere? Then they’re over a gun barrel to get a guy in the draft. If they resign Kirk to a multi-year extension, what if a guy falls to them in the draft? Do they pass because they just resigned Kirk?

If you can get Kirk to sign year-to-year, then fine. But Kirk wants a three-year commitment, from what I understand.

They’re in a rough spot at the position for the future.

Kirk is a very smart businessman and has played his strategy to perfection through the years. Yes, the Vikes might very well have no viable option other than extending Kirk and he most likely would not give any kind of hometown discount unless he salivates at the thought of throwing to the 3 headed monster of JJ, TJ, and Adi. Guess we have to trust in Qwesi to figure this out.

Kirk has made himself a lot of money betting on himself. Good for him.

Correct. Just wish he had a little bit of that "it" factor and we'd all be thankful he was here and hoping for another 4-5 years of him. He's been quite good.

[Oriole81]

I have no idea what the QB plan is either. I assume they’ll address it next off-season. But the timing is rough. If they want to resign Kirk, that will cost them more than it would have if they’d just done that this year. And they’ll have to make that call before the draft. Do they let him go elsewhere? Then they’re over a gun barrel to get a guy in the draft. If they resign Kirk to a multi-year extension, what if a guy falls to them in the draft? Do they pass because they just resigned Kirk?

If you can get Kirk to sign year-to-year, then fine. But Kirk wants a three-year commitment, from what I understand.

They’re in a rough spot at the position for the future.

Kirk is a very smart businessman and has played his strategy to perfection through the years. Yes, the Vikes might very well have no viable option other than extending Kirk and he most likely would not give any kind of hometown discount unless he salivates at the thought of throwing to the 3 headed monster of JJ, TJ, and Adi. Guess we have to trust in Qwesi to figure this out.

It was reported this offseason that Kirk would be willing to stay under $40M per if we would guarantee through 2025, which would be considered a discount.
We’re supposedly the ones that said no.

If we can’t come up with any other option and have to go back to Kirk and that discount is pulled, than Kirk is not the bad guy.

[Beef Supreme]

I have no idea what the QB plan is either. I assume they’ll address it next off-season. But the timing is rough. If they want to resign Kirk, that will cost them more than it would have if they’d just done that this year. And they’ll have to make that call before the draft. Do they let him go elsewhere? Then they’re over a gun barrel to get a guy in the draft. If they resign Kirk to a multi-year extension, what if a guy falls to them in the draft? Do they pass because they just resigned Kirk?

If you can get Kirk to sign year-to-year, then fine. But Kirk wants a three-year commitment, from what I understand.

They’re in a rough spot at the position for the future.

Kirk is a very smart businessman and has played his strategy to perfection through the years. Yes, the Vikes might very well have no viable option other than extending Kirk and he most likely would not give any kind of hometown discount unless he salivates at the thought of throwing to the 3 headed monster of JJ, TJ, and Adi. Guess we have to trust in Qwesi to figure this out.

It was reported this offseason that Kirk would be willing to stay under $40M per if we would guarantee through 2025, which would be considered a discount.
We’re supposedly the ones that said no.

If we can’t come up with any other option and have to go back to Kirk and that discount is pulled, than Kirk is not the bad guy.

I agree. If we go crawling back to Kirk and he makes us pay through the nose, that’s on Kwesi.

[Offsides 97 defense]

I have no idea what the QB plan is either. I assume they’ll address it next off-season. But the timing is rough. If they want to resign Kirk, that will cost them more than it would have if they’d just done that this year. And they’ll have to make that call before the draft. Do they let him go elsewhere? Then they’re over a gun barrel to get a guy in the draft. If they resign Kirk to a multi-year extension, what if a guy falls to them in the draft? Do they pass because they just resigned Kirk?

If you can get Kirk to sign year-to-year, then fine. But Kirk wants a three-year commitment, from what I understand.

They’re in a rough spot at the position for the future.

Kirk is a very smart businessman and has played his strategy to perfection through the years. Yes, the Vikes might very well have no viable option other than extending Kirk and he most likely would not give any kind of hometown discount unless he salivates at the thought of throwing to the 3 headed monster of JJ, TJ, and Adi. Guess we have to trust in Qwesi to figure this out.

It was reported this offseason that Kirk would be willing to stay under $40M per if we would guarantee through 2025, which would be considered a discount.
We’re supposedly the ones that said no.

If we can’t come up with any other option and have to go back to Kirk and that discount is pulled, than Kirk is not the bad guy.

I remember that as well. I don't think Kirk has the leverage he once did and doesn't want to leave here. He's close to home, his alma mater and his family is situated. He is well-liked and gets along with KOC. I still think this team makes a push for Lance. There is no way Lynch keeps somebody on that team that most likely isn't going to play, and they could get a day one or day two pick in return.

I'm all excited about the Pace pick-up. But history shows he has a slim chance to start for us. There's got to be something else (outside his height) that we are not privy to, maybe in those private interviews or off-field nonsense. It doesn't make any sense he went undrafted unless we are missing something. With that said, make a trade and get a linebacker in here. One with some seasoning. Because this is an awfully green defense.

[salamander]

Wouldn't get too excited about undrafted players. Might be some good special teams players hopefully.

Don't be a Boob Tube. The Vikings, for some reason, have had pretty good luck in the 5th, 6th, and 7th round and with UDFA's. I mean, KJ Osborne was a 5th rounder. CJ Ham, Adam Thielen, Marcus Sherels were UDFA's. Diggs was 5th as well. I'm sure I'm missing more. ALl of these players contributed.

It's the Boob's job to come in here and shit on anyone with a positive take or who doesn't align with whatever he believes because he read it on twitter.

Good take. Now I'm curious how many teams have contributions like that from lower round picks.

[salamander]

Holy Fucking Dogshit.

2 chinstraps guy. Love it.

I dig it.

[Oriole81]

I feel 100% better that Flores is advocating Kwesi on D this year vs. Donatell.

Yes and no.
I certainly trust him more than Donatell, but that still doesn’t mean perceived value is right. If he really is that great at identifying and developing mid round DBs, then couldn’t he have gotten someone like Ward later and instead used that earlier pick on someone like Abdullah or Henry, who went with the next two picks?

Follow up question to that then, we all assume Flores is going to be here short term as he’ll get another HC job soon. Are these guys gonna be just as good if someone else is coaching them?

Not sure on the who/when to pick-just seems like once you get into the 4th-7th rounds you start taking "your" guys and I'm thinking Ward was one. I don't know really but I guess we'll find out-heck I would've been OK with Pace Jr taken in 4th.

I guess if he's here short term it likely means he was successful and I would think a successor would have a better time with a good D vs. a bad D.

Yes and no. It's important to "get your guys," but that also has to apply to the entire team, so there has to still be an economic approach to it.

CB: We absolutely need more CBs, but let's not forget that we also have a nice FA in Murphy, a 2nd rd pick from last year and a 4th rd pick from last year. What exactly are the expectations for everyone?
Blackmon doesn't seem like he has as much upside as some of the other guys drafted around him, so are the pundits all wrong and Flores sees him as a high end starter still? Or is he just a rotational piece?

More power to Flores if he has a vision for all 4 of them and he sees Blackmon specifically as a key piece to that, but if he is just a rotational piece that gets overrated because of Flores' "system", then that's not very good value.

DB: Ward seems a lot like Bynum to me. Former CB that converted to safety due to physical limitations, but also because they have the intelligence to quickly learn the new role. If that's true, then why can't Flores just work with Bynum?
Bynum is a super smart guy so I'm sure he could learn Flores' system pretty smoothly. How much better can Ward really be, considering he didn't seem to be that highly rated conventionally?

So now we're at 8 highly drafted guys (Cine, Smith, Bynum, Booth, Evans, Murphy, Blackmon, Ward...not to mention Metellus has become a nice contributor, as well as Theo Jackson might be worth a further look) so if you're telling me that you can create a versatile unit that can make this into the best secondary in the league, then great.
But otherwise, there's no value in "getting your own guys" if all it is going to do is cannabalize the contributions of Bynum and Metellus.

Those picks could easily have gone to "get our guys" at DL and OL as well, which have just as much of a need.
Happy to see it play out, but it seems alot has to go right for this to hit its zenith, which is why many fans have "apprehension."

[Oriole81]

Regarding UDFAs and if any ever amount to anything...I'm sure the recent push for more late Day 3 picks contributed to us not getting more hits on UDFAs, however before that we had some noteworthy ones...

Thielen 100%
Anthony Harris 100%
Justin Coleman 100%, though we stupidly tried to get him through waivers after camp and NE poached him and got the huge return
Tashaun Bowers made the team his first year, and then we let him go because of depth and he went on to start for a few years in NE
Zach Line
Matt Asiata
Khari Blasingame got poached from our PS and has made a nice career for himself
Mata'afa may have become something had he not gotten hurt

Then think about the late 7th rd'ers we had that became contributors, but easily could have been UDFAs had we not had so many damn 7th rders..

Jayron Kearse
Stephen Weatherly
Olabisi Johnson
Kyle Hinton
Ifeadi Odenigbo

We've done alright.
Solid contributors, a few legitimate starters, and one superstar.
It's reasonable that we could have something here with some of these guys

[Oriole81]

Kirk is a very smart businessman and has played his strategy to perfection through the years. Yes, the Vikes might very well have no viable option other than extending Kirk and he most likely would not give any kind of hometown discount unless he salivates at the thought of throwing to the 3 headed monster of JJ, TJ, and Adi. Guess we have to trust in Qwesi to figure this out.

It was reported this offseason that Kirk would be willing to stay under $40M per if we would guarantee through 2025, which would be considered a discount.
We’re supposedly the ones that said no.

If we can’t come up with any other option and have to go back to Kirk and that discount is pulled, than Kirk is not the bad guy.

I remember that as well. I don't think Kirk has the leverage he once did and doesn't want to leave here. He's close to home, his alma mater and his family is situated. He is well-liked and gets along with KOC. I still think this team makes a push for Lance. There is no way Lynch keeps somebody on that team that most likely isn't going to play, and they could get a day one or day two pick in return.

I'm all excited about the Pace pick-up. But history shows he has a slim chance to start for us. There's got to be something else (outside his height) that we are not privy to, maybe in those private interviews or off-field nonsense. It doesn't make any sense he went undrafted unless we are missing something. With that said, make a trade and get a linebacker in here. One with some seasoning. Because this is an awfully green defense.

1) He has leverage in that, he's the only option we may have. If he plays well next year and we're successful, which should be the result, then we're not in a position to draft a topline QB, so if he wanted to he could put us over the barrel. Hopefully he wouldn't do that, but it'd be within his ability.

2) A Lance trade works for me.

[D_H]

https://amp.foxsports.com/stories/nfl/n ... ng-the-way

Draft grades

[somuchyummy]

I do have a “big picture” gripe with this draft. This isn’t about player X over player Y. All that stuff shakes out over time.


My gripe is that it’s very easy to say that the weakness of this team last year was the LoS. We lost up front to good teams a lot, on both sides of the ball. And we did almost nothing to address that the entire off-season. We have to hope that Ingram takes a big step forward on offense and Flores’ scheme fixes a lot on defense, because we didn’t address the talent much at all, outside of a 5th round DT.


It’s easy to argue that the team overall may have been better served with a “blood and guts” draft full of slobberknockers and hogs rather than a skill player draft. That’s not a knock on any of the guys we did draft. But I’m not sure we adequately addressed the #1 reason we struggled against the better teams in the league. I’m not sure we stand any better chance of a deep playoff run this year as we did last. I’ll enjoy watching the new toys go this year, and getting Cine and Booth back hopefully healthy will be fun too. But every time a high-end DL makes Kirk’s life miserable and every time we get gashed in the run game, I’ll wonder if we had the right priorities this off-season.

i'm with you on the LoS comment. i like the McBride pick at the end, but think we could have just as well picked up someone like Keaton Mitchell UDFA later - and used that pick on Vorhees instead. He was there. Yes, he won't "be there" for a year because of the ACL rehab, but sometimes you should take the long game. and, in this case, while he's not perfect - i do think a rehabbed AV could easily press Ingram for a starting OG spot in just one year. it's not often (or ever) you can expect that about someone you picked at 222. Vorhees was a special situation that i think we should have capitalized on, but we didn't. feels like a whiff.

[Oriole81]

I do have a “big picture” gripe with this draft. This isn’t about player X over player Y. All that stuff shakes out over time.


My gripe is that it’s very easy to say that the weakness of this team last year was the LoS. We lost up front to good teams a lot, on both sides of the ball. And we did almost nothing to address that the entire off-season. We have to hope that Ingram takes a big step forward on offense and Flores’ scheme fixes a lot on defense, because we didn’t address the talent much at all, outside of a 5th round DT.


It’s easy to argue that the team overall may have been better served with a “blood and guts” draft full of slobberknockers and hogs rather than a skill player draft. That’s not a knock on any of the guys we did draft. But I’m not sure we adequately addressed the #1 reason we struggled against the better teams in the league. I’m not sure we stand any better chance of a deep playoff run this year as we did last. I’ll enjoy watching the new toys go this year, and getting Cine and Booth back hopefully healthy will be fun too. But every time a high-end DL makes Kirk’s life miserable and every time we get gashed in the run game, I’ll wonder if we had the right priorities this off-season.

i'm with you on the LoS comment. i like the McBride pick at the end, but think we could have just as well picked up someone like Keaton Mitchell UDFA later - and used that pick on Vorhees instead. He was there. Yes, he won't "be there" for a year because of the ACL rehab, but sometimes you should take the long game. and, in this case, while he's not perfect - i do think a rehabbed AV could easily press Ingram for a starting OG spot in just one year. it's not often (or ever) you can expect that about someone you picked at 222. Vorhees was a special situation that i think we should have capitalized on, but we didn't. feels like a whiff.

Or insurance in case Ezra leaves in FA, which is a distinct possibility.

[Charles Bronson]

Don't suspend him. This is how he and I normally talk. He likes to get under people's skin and doesn't like it reciprocated. I don't appreciate the racist remark, but it doesn't bother me. He and I are both black, at least, I think he is.

I appreciate your advocacy. I will let him off tomorrow. Even if you're cool with it, it's still against the rules.

Understood

Okay. I've let Tube out of the Hoosegow (I think I did it right). He probably would have gotten 3 days if not for your advocacy, rather than an overnight timeout. I will take such things into account.


But I want to implore upon you that there is more than just your particular back and forth happening here. This is a public forum and it does have rules. I don't mind a little back and forth, but swearing at a poster and making accusations of racism against one (especially if unfounded) is not permitted, regardless of intent.

Thank you in advance for your cooperation and happy Froobing!

[Beef Supreme]

I do have a “big picture” gripe with this draft. This isn’t about player X over player Y. All that stuff shakes out over time.


My gripe is that it’s very easy to say that the weakness of this team last year was the LoS. We lost up front to good teams a lot, on both sides of the ball. And we did almost nothing to address that the entire off-season. We have to hope that Ingram takes a big step forward on offense and Flores’ scheme fixes a lot on defense, because we didn’t address the talent much at all, outside of a 5th round DT.


It’s easy to argue that the team overall may have been better served with a “blood and guts” draft full of slobberknockers and hogs rather than a skill player draft. That’s not a knock on any of the guys we did draft. But I’m not sure we adequately addressed the #1 reason we struggled against the better teams in the league. I’m not sure we stand any better chance of a deep playoff run this year as we did last. I’ll enjoy watching the new toys go this year, and getting Cine and Booth back hopefully healthy will be fun too. But every time a high-end DL makes Kirk’s life miserable and every time we get gashed in the run game, I’ll wonder if we had the right priorities this off-season.

i'm with you on the LoS comment. i like the McBride pick at the end, but think we could have just as well picked up someone like Keaton Mitchell UDFA later - and used that pick on Vorhees instead. He was there. Yes, he won't "be there" for a year because of the ACL rehab, but sometimes you should take the long game. and, in this case, while he's not perfect - i do think a rehabbed AV could easily press Ingram for a starting OG spot in just one year. it's not often (or ever) you can expect that about someone you picked at 222. Vorhees was a special situation that i think we should have capitalized on, but we didn't. feels like a whiff.

Or insurance in case Ezra leaves in FA, which is a distinct possibility.

This is exactly right. Both of you.

But McBride also looks good. We just needed another 7th rounder!

[somuchyummy]

as for UDFA signings - either these youngsters need to be educated better about the nature of stats and odds - or the NFL should limit how many UDFAs a team can take. case in point: the Rams selected 14 draft picks this weekend, and then right after it was over, signed 18 UDFAs.

32 new faces to sort thru? really? after awhile it just feels like hoarding, to keep other teams away from first looks at extra talent.

[Oriole81]

i'm with you on the LoS comment. i like the McBride pick at the end, but think we could have just as well picked up someone like Keaton Mitchell UDFA later - and used that pick on Vorhees instead. He was there. Yes, he won't "be there" for a year because of the ACL rehab, but sometimes you should take the long game. and, in this case, while he's not perfect - i do think a rehabbed AV could easily press Ingram for a starting OG spot in just one year. it's not often (or ever) you can expect that about someone you picked at 222. Vorhees was a special situation that i think we should have capitalized on, but we didn't. feels like a whiff.

Or insurance in case Ezra leaves in FA, which is a distinct possibility.

This is exactly right. Both of you.

But McBride also looks good. We just needed another 7th rounder!

I addressed my issues with the McBride selection above in my final take.
No problem with him as a player, but there should have been enough foresight about the depth of this RB class before the offseason even started.

I was completely fine with moving off of both Cook and Mattison this offseason, finding a good mid round complement RB to Chandler, and using the extra $11M towards another FA need.

Now we've got 5 drafted RBs on the roster, plus CJ Ham, plus a guy in Bryant Koback on the PS that I actually liked as well...and we can't do anything with it.
There's no trade value, and there's no good free agents available to go pursue with the cap savings from releasing Cook at this point.