I want NAW long-term, too.
I'm a huge NAW guy.
I wouldn't be opposed to both.shuttlesworth wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 1:56 pm NAW is going to get a $20 million+/year offer-sheet in 2025. Naz probably will too. If the Wolves want to retain either of those guys long term (and I think they should retain both), they'll likely need to trade either Towns or McDaniels.
If McDaniels doesn’t pull his head out of his ass, he might have negative value considering that contract.shuttlesworth wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 1:56 pm NAW is going to get a $20 million+/year offer-sheet in 2025. Naz probably will too. If the Wolves want to retain either of those guys long term (and I think they should retain both), they'll likely need to trade either Towns or McDaniels.
This number seems a bit high on NAW. I see him definitely as a midlevel guy and maybe a little higher.shuttlesworth wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 1:56 pm NAW is going to get a $20 million+/year offer-sheet in 2025. Naz probably will too. If the Wolves want to retain either of those guys long term (and I think they should retain both), they'll likely need to trade either Towns or McDaniels.
If it’s all and only about money, then we’re fucked anyway. If this team is a title contender but new ownership won’t pay to keep it together, then there’s not much point in being a fan.
Agreed. Hopefully the new owners realize what we have here and keep this group together for as long as possible. Maybe even add someone else to the mix.Beef Supreme wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2024 5:43 pmIf it’s all and only about money, then we’re fucked anyway. If this team is a title contender but new ownership won’t pay to keep it together, then there’s not much point in being a fan.
Look at title teams. They’re almost always way over the cap and into the lux.
In the last 20 years, 11 of the championship teams come from the top-5 payroll teams in the league. 17 of the 20 come from the top half. The other three were the San Antonio Spurs.
If we don’t pay, we get to be a fun feeder team for the real players at best.
And when the team naturally crumbles eventually, then get cheap and stock picks for a year or three if you have to for the next run.focker wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 7:50 amAgreed. Hopefully the new owners realize what we have here and keep this group together for as long as possible. Maybe even add someone else to the mix.Beef Supreme wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2024 5:43 pmIf it’s all and only about money, then we’re fucked anyway. If this team is a title contender but new ownership won’t pay to keep it together, then there’s not much point in being a fan.
Look at title teams. They’re almost always way over the cap and into the lux.
In the last 20 years, 11 of the championship teams come from the top-5 payroll teams in the league. 17 of the 20 come from the top half. The other three were the San Antonio Spurs.
If we don’t pay, we get to be a fun feeder team for the real players at best.
This is uncharted territory though for the new "aprons" in the luxury tax. I am 100% fine if the Wolves do not want to be a second apron team.. I wish the league would just move to a hard cap but I'm sure the players would never agree. Some of these max salaries are getting absolutely insane. 70-80 mil in the future for a star player?Beef Supreme wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2024 5:43 pmIf it’s all and only about money, then we’re fucked anyway. If this team is a title contender but new ownership won’t pay to keep it together, then there’s not much point in being a fan.
Look at title teams. They’re almost always way over the cap and into the lux.
In the last 20 years, 11 of the championship teams come from the top-5 payroll teams in the league. 17 of the 20 come from the top half. The other three were the San Antonio Spurs.
If we don’t pay, we get to be a fun feeder team for the real players at best.
You’re 100% cool if these mega rich dudes who print money don’t want to pay to keep a title contending team together?HeHateMe wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 11:18 amThis is uncharted territory though for the new "aprons" in the luxury tax. I am 100% fine if the Wolves do not want to be a second apron team.. I wish the league would just move to a hard cap but I'm sure the players would never agree. Some of these max salaries are getting absolutely insane. 70-80 mil in the future for a star player?Beef Supreme wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2024 5:43 pmIf it’s all and only about money, then we’re fucked anyway. If this team is a title contender but new ownership won’t pay to keep it together, then there’s not much point in being a fan.
Look at title teams. They’re almost always way over the cap and into the lux.
In the last 20 years, 11 of the championship teams come from the top-5 payroll teams in the league. 17 of the 20 come from the top half. The other three were the San Antonio Spurs.
If we don’t pay, we get to be a fun feeder team for the real players at best.
If the Wolves want to retain Naz, they have to likely move a big salary out. It seems like KAT is the most obvious one, especially to bring back a combo of guards/wings/picks.
Beef Supreme wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 11:28 am
You’re 100% cool if these mega rich dudes who print money don’t want to pay to keep a title contending team together?
I’m not. Fuck that.
I'm actually thinking/talking more about the league rules, not the money the owners spend or don't spend. Again, I'd rather just see a hard cap like the NFL has but this is clearly the league trying to get to one.Beef Supreme wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 11:28 amYou’re 100% cool if these mega rich dudes who print money don’t want to pay to keep a title contending team together?HeHateMe wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 11:18 amThis is uncharted territory though for the new "aprons" in the luxury tax. I am 100% fine if the Wolves do not want to be a second apron team.. I wish the league would just move to a hard cap but I'm sure the players would never agree. Some of these max salaries are getting absolutely insane. 70-80 mil in the future for a star player?Beef Supreme wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2024 5:43 pm
If it’s all and only about money, then we’re fucked anyway. If this team is a title contender but new ownership won’t pay to keep it together, then there’s not much point in being a fan.
Look at title teams. They’re almost always way over the cap and into the lux.
In the last 20 years, 11 of the championship teams come from the top-5 payroll teams in the league. 17 of the 20 come from the top half. The other three were the San Antonio Spurs.
If we don’t pay, we get to be a fun feeder team for the real players at best.
If the Wolves want to retain Naz, they have to likely move a big salary out. It seems like KAT is the most obvious one, especially to bring back a combo of guards/wings/picks.
I’m not. Fuck that.
Who cares? The premise is that we already have a team that can compete for the title. Who cares if we lose the MLE or whatever?HeHateMe wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 12:32 pmI'm actually thinking/talking more about the league rules, not the money the owners spend or don't spend. Again, I'd rather just see a hard cap like the NFL has but this is clearly the league trying to get to one.Beef Supreme wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 11:28 amYou’re 100% cool if these mega rich dudes who print money don’t want to pay to keep a title contending team together?HeHateMe wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 11:18 am
This is uncharted territory though for the new "aprons" in the luxury tax. I am 100% fine if the Wolves do not want to be a second apron team.. I wish the league would just move to a hard cap but I'm sure the players would never agree. Some of these max salaries are getting absolutely insane. 70-80 mil in the future for a star player?
If the Wolves want to retain Naz, they have to likely move a big salary out. It seems like KAT is the most obvious one, especially to bring back a combo of guards/wings/picks.
I’m not. Fuck that.
I hope to win a title too. Who cares? I guess I do. Just a reminder...Beef Supreme wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 1:30 pmWho cares? The premise is that we already have a team that can compete for the title. Who cares if we lose the MLE or whatever?HeHateMe wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 12:32 pmI'm actually thinking/talking more about the league rules, not the money the owners spend or don't spend. Again, I'd rather just see a hard cap like the NFL has but this is clearly the league trying to get to one.Beef Supreme wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 11:28 am
You’re 100% cool if these mega rich dudes who print money don’t want to pay to keep a title contending team together?
I’m not. Fuck that.
All worthwhile reasons to avoid that if your team isn’t good.HeHateMe wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 1:36 pmI hope to win a title too. Who cares? I guess I do. Just a reminder...Beef Supreme wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 1:30 pmWho cares? The premise is that we already have a team that can compete for the title. Who cares if we lose the MLE or whatever?
What are the penalties for the first apron?
Teams cannot acquire a player in a sign-and-trade if that player keeps them above the apron
Teams cannot sign a player waived during the regular season whose salary was over the $12.2 million midlevel exception
Salary matching in trades must be within 110 percent, rather than 125 percent for teams not above the apron
What are the penalties for the second apron?
All of the penalties for the first apron apply to the second apron as well, which is triggered when a team's salary exceeds $182.5 million. For the 2023-24 season, one additional penalty is added when crossing the second apron:
No access to the $5 million taxpayer midlevel exception
Starting at the end of the 2023-24 season, even more restrictions will be added to the second apron. These include:
Teams cannot use a trade exception generated by aggregating the salaries of multiple players
Teams cannot include cash in a trade
Teams cannot use a trade exception generated in a prior year
First-round picks seven years out are frozen (unable to be traded)
A team's first-round pick is moved to the end of the first round if they remain in the second apron for three out of five seasons
Fair point on the item if your team isn't good enough. I don't see this organization acting in the future like the Warriors and paying 100-200 mil a year in luxury penalties in addition to accepting the second apron restrictions. We will see!Beef Supreme wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 1:52 pm
All worthwhile reasons to avoid that if your team isn’t good.
But again, the premise is that the team is a championship contender. That is the goal. That is what you try to build. Who cares if you don’t have those options if you already have a contender? You want those options to build a contender. Break up a contender so you can get those options back to… maybe build a contender again?
Makes no sense.
Absolutely. If your team is a contender, you keep them together and don't break it up over money. I never understood those owners wanting a professional sports team that pinched pennies and sucked year after year? What the fuck is that all about?Beef Supreme wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 1:52 pmAll worthwhile reasons to avoid that if your team isn’t good.HeHateMe wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 1:36 pmI hope to win a title too. Who cares? I guess I do. Just a reminder...Beef Supreme wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 1:30 pm
Who cares? The premise is that we already have a team that can compete for the title. Who cares if we lose the MLE or whatever?
What are the penalties for the first apron?
Teams cannot acquire a player in a sign-and-trade if that player keeps them above the apron
Teams cannot sign a player waived during the regular season whose salary was over the $12.2 million midlevel exception
Salary matching in trades must be within 110 percent, rather than 125 percent for teams not above the apron
What are the penalties for the second apron?
All of the penalties for the first apron apply to the second apron as well, which is triggered when a team's salary exceeds $182.5 million. For the 2023-24 season, one additional penalty is added when crossing the second apron:
No access to the $5 million taxpayer midlevel exception
Starting at the end of the 2023-24 season, even more restrictions will be added to the second apron. These include:
Teams cannot use a trade exception generated by aggregating the salaries of multiple players
Teams cannot include cash in a trade
Teams cannot use a trade exception generated in a prior year
First-round picks seven years out are frozen (unable to be traded)
A team's first-round pick is moved to the end of the first round if they remain in the second apron for three out of five seasons
But again, the premise is that the team is a championship contender. That is the goal. That is what you try to build. Who cares if you don’t have those options if you already have a contender? You want those options to build a contender. Break up a contender so you can get those options back to… maybe build a contender again?
Makes no sense.
That says it all.HeHateMe wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 2:02 pmFair point on the item if your team isn't good enough. I don't see this organization acting in the future like the Warriors and paying 100-200 mil a year in luxury penalties in addition to accepting the second apron restrictions. We will see!Beef Supreme wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 1:52 pm
All worthwhile reasons to avoid that if your team isn’t good.
But again, the premise is that the team is a championship contender. That is the goal. That is what you try to build. Who cares if you don’t have those options if you already have a contender? You want those options to build a contender. Break up a contender so you can get those options back to… maybe build a contender again?
Makes no sense.
Trade KAT, extend Naz!
I don’t know how long we’re contenders. That’s not the premise. If there are real basketball reasons to make moves, make them. Not against that. But the premise of this discussion is about breaking up an active contender over money.A$$MAN wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 2:29 pmAbsolutely. If your team is a contender, you keep them together and don't break it up over money. I never understood those owners wanting a professional sports team that pinched pennies and sucked year after year? What the fuck is that all about?Beef Supreme wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 1:52 pmAll worthwhile reasons to avoid that if your team isn’t good.HeHateMe wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 1:36 pm
I hope to win a title too. Who cares? I guess I do. Just a reminder...
What are the penalties for the first apron?
Teams cannot acquire a player in a sign-and-trade if that player keeps them above the apron
Teams cannot sign a player waived during the regular season whose salary was over the $12.2 million midlevel exception
Salary matching in trades must be within 110 percent, rather than 125 percent for teams not above the apron
What are the penalties for the second apron?
All of the penalties for the first apron apply to the second apron as well, which is triggered when a team's salary exceeds $182.5 million. For the 2023-24 season, one additional penalty is added when crossing the second apron:
No access to the $5 million taxpayer midlevel exception
Starting at the end of the 2023-24 season, even more restrictions will be added to the second apron. These include:
Teams cannot use a trade exception generated by aggregating the salaries of multiple players
Teams cannot include cash in a trade
Teams cannot use a trade exception generated in a prior year
First-round picks seven years out are frozen (unable to be traded)
A team's first-round pick is moved to the end of the first round if they remain in the second apron for three out of five seasons
But again, the premise is that the team is a championship contender. That is the goal. That is what you try to build. Who cares if you don’t have those options if you already have a contender? You want those options to build a contender. Break up a contender so you can get those options back to… maybe build a contender again?
Makes no sense.
However, regarding the Wolves, how long are we serious contenders with the current squad? I think we probably have this year and next, then decisions will need to be made based on gobert and Conley getting older and probably less productive. I can't imagine extending gobert's contract when his current one is up, especially if we haven't won a championship. It will be interesting how leadership decides to move forward.
How many owners do pay that much in luxury tax each year? No clue... my argument in this kat value thread though is I want Naz longterm... and I doubt this organization is going to pay him starter money to have him continue to back up KAT and Rudy.Beef Supreme wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 4:10 pmThat says it all.HeHateMe wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 2:02 pmFair point on the item if your team isn't good enough. I don't see this organization acting in the future like the Warriors and paying 100-200 mil a year in luxury penalties in addition to accepting the second apron restrictions. We will see!Beef Supreme wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 1:52 pm
All worthwhile reasons to avoid that if your team isn’t good.
But again, the premise is that the team is a championship contender. That is the goal. That is what you try to build. Who cares if you don’t have those options if you already have a contender? You want those options to build a contender. Break up a contender so you can get those options back to… maybe build a contender again?
Makes no sense.
Trade KAT, extend Naz!
You don’t see this organization pursuing greatness.
Fuck that.
I don’t know.HeHateMe wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 4:54 pmHow many owners do pay that much in luxury tax each year? No clue... my argument in this kat value thread though is I want Naz longterm... and I doubt this organization is going to pay him starter money to have him continue to back up KAT and Rudy.Beef Supreme wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 4:10 pmThat says it all.HeHateMe wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 2:02 pm
Fair point on the item if your team isn't good enough. I don't see this organization acting in the future like the Warriors and paying 100-200 mil a year in luxury penalties in addition to accepting the second apron restrictions. We will see!
Trade KAT, extend Naz!
You don’t see this organization pursuing greatness.
Fuck that.
Pohlad's are really really cheap... if they were the wolves owners I am not sure they'd spend up to the cap!Beef Supreme wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 5:00 pm I don’t know.
How many owners break up contending teams over salary? I would guess not many.
You value Naz long-term and don’t want to lose him if it comes down to him or Towns. That’s a defendable position to take. Totally fine. And totally different from rejecting ownership that is too cheap to keep a title contending team together.
That’s inexcusable.
That’s Pohlad-level bullshit.
Right. Exaggeration on my part, but you get the picture.HeHateMe wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 5:07 pmPohlad's are really really cheap... if they were the wolves owners I am not sure they'd spend up to the cap!Beef Supreme wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2024 5:00 pm I don’t know.
How many owners break up contending teams over salary? I would guess not many.
You value Naz long-term and don’t want to lose him if it comes down to him or Towns. That’s a defendable position to take. Totally fine. And totally different from rejecting ownership that is too cheap to keep a title contending team together.
That’s inexcusable.
That’s Pohlad-level bullshit.
I think his value will remain high.. he had a good season (when healthy). He can help a team that wants more talent... Wolves pivot to Naz and break up KAT's big contract to build around Ant, Naz and Jaden.populousample wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2024 12:51 pm Not sure when/if KAT comes back but it would be nice to see him contribute to a deep playoff run. Would help his value.
yep. they can sell hope. pretty sure they're going to pivot from him. too many injuries. they don't have to get "full value" for him. with the younger core you can start planning for a run with rudy and conley and then a potential run after them. rudy might have a lot of tread left on the tire too.HeHateMe wrote: ↑Fri Mar 29, 2024 1:23 pmI think his value will remain high.. he had a good season (when healthy). He can help a team that wants more talent... Wolves pivot to Naz and break up KAT's big contract to build around Ant, Naz and Jaden.populousample wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2024 12:51 pm Not sure when/if KAT comes back but it would be nice to see him contribute to a deep playoff run. Would help his value.