MN Rube Chat

If Jimmy is gone, what happens to our record this year if we take the picks and like Brandon Knight + salary filler? Feels like a 35 win team, yes?

That's like a top 10 pick, perhaps packaging a couple of these possibly shittier picks gets you into the top 5. I don't know anything about this draft class, so perhaps that doesn't matter.

If Jimmy gets dealt, Thibs is gonna be gone, Taj is gonna be gone, Teague could be gone or only one year left, Rose gone, and it's a new roster around Towns, Wiggins, and Okogie....plus Dieng, Tyus, Bates, and a high pick.

I'd do it for Eric Gordon and the 4 picks.

These picks are more valuable than this board is realizing and here is why:

#1 The picks are every other year so 2019, 2021, 2023, 2025 Is 33 year old CP3 still going to be anything in a few years? He already has injury issues.

#2 2019 1st Round Pick is a garbage pick we all know that but we might be able to shop that pick with Gourgi Dieng and get out from under that contract. Maybe we do something crazy in the offseason once Leonard leaves Toronto and shop Wiggins etc.

This is all about giving us flexibility to make some moves post Butler. This offer is not nearly as bad as rubes are making it out to be.

Eric Gordon doesn't have a ton left but he can be a quality 6th man for years to come or in a pinch a starter. Injuries have robbed him of being a star anymore but he is still a quality NBA player.

And while I know Thibs is still on the hot seat he does seem to have an eye for talent and trust him to draft the right players. Okogie looks like a steal at this moment and I think in the future KBD should be a good rotational player as well.

Joboo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:15 am I'd do it for Eric Gordon and the 4 picks.

These picks are more valuable than this board is realizing and here is why:

#1 The picks are every other year so 2019, 2021, 2023, 2025 Is 33 year old CP3 still going to be anything in a few years? He already has injury issues.

#2 2019 1st Round Pick is a garbage pick we all know that but we might be able to shop that pick with Gourgi Dieng and get out from under that contract. Maybe we do something crazy in the offseason once Leonard leaves Toronto and shop Wiggins etc.

This is all about giving us flexibility to make some moves post Butler. This offer is not nearly as bad as rubes are making it out to be.

Eric Gordon doesn't have a ton left but he can be a quality 6th man for years to come or in a pinch a starter. Injuries have robbed him of being a star anymore but he is still a quality NBA player.

And while I know Thibs is still on the hot seat he does seem to have an eye for talent and trust him to draft the right players. Okogie looks like a steal at this moment and I think in the future KBD should be a good rotational player as well.

Solid take, but remember he did pick Kris Dunn as well. Im not sold on his eye for talent.

Corre Ricky Corre wrote: ↑Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:51 am
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The bidding wars have begun.

Thibs is a fucking genius.

I want from;

Philly; Fultz/Saric/ 2 First Rounders
Houston 4 firsts NO Protections, plus Eric Gordon
Miami 2 firsts, BAM, Richardson

j2j wrote: ↑Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:19 am

Joboo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:15 am I'd do it for Eric Gordon and the 4 picks.

These picks are more valuable than this board is realizing and here is why:

#1 The picks are every other year so 2019, 2021, 2023, 2025 Is 33 year old CP3 still going to be anything in a few years? He already has injury issues.

#2 2019 1st Round Pick is a garbage pick we all know that but we might be able to shop that pick with Gourgi Dieng and get out from under that contract. Maybe we do something crazy in the offseason once Leonard leaves Toronto and shop Wiggins etc.

This is all about giving us flexibility to make some moves post Butler. This offer is not nearly as bad as rubes are making it out to be.

Eric Gordon doesn't have a ton left but he can be a quality 6th man for years to come or in a pinch a starter. Injuries have robbed him of being a star anymore but he is still a quality NBA player.

And while I know Thibs is still on the hot seat he does seem to have an eye for talent and trust him to draft the right players. Okogie looks like a steal at this moment and I think in the future KBD should be a good rotational player as well.

Solid take, but remember he did pick Kris Dunn as well. Im not sold on his eye for talent.

Dunn has proven to be competent in Chicago, its the injuries holding him back.

Pretty sure Dunn was thought to be a decent pick in that really awful draft at that time as well. Thibs was also really high on Draymond Green and begged Chicago to take him but they passed.

Recent simple, not top of the first NBA draft trade ups...

2018: #16 pick and a 2021 first got Pho up to #10 for Mikal Bridges
2017: Picks 15 & 20 got Port to #10 for Zach Collins
2017: Pick #24 and Trey Lyles (distressed former lottery pick equals roughly a late first now) for Donovan Mitchell
2016: Picks 13 & 28, a 2020 2nd rd pick and draft rights to Bogdanovic got Pho up to #8.
2015: Pick 19 plus two future 2nd rd picks got Wash up to 15 for Oubre
2015: Pick 31 and 36 plus future 2nd rd pick got us up to 24 for Tyus
2014: Picks 16 & 19 plus future 2nd rd pick for Chi up to 11 for McDermott
2013: Picks 14 & 21 got Utah up to #9 for Trey Burke
2012: Picks 24, 33 and 34 got Cle up to 17 for T Zeller

That's not insignificant, and happens alot recently. Now some of the deals actually ended up working for the other team that got the multiple picks so obviously that's the devil's advocate, but that doesn't mean that moving up cannot happen and with great success if you have a specific player you're targetting.
I think the 3 most recent at the top are great value move ups

great news here. with #1 priority of keeping KAT motivated, this trade news aligns perfectly with that priority.

Oriole81 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:29 am Recent simple, not top of the first NBA draft trade ups...

2018: #16 pick and a 2021 first got Pho up to #10 for Mikal Bridges
2017: Picks 15 & 20 got Port to #10 for Zach Collins
2017: Pick #24 and Trey Lyles (distressed former lottery pick equals roughly a late first now) for Donovan Mitchell
2016: Picks 13 & 28, a 2020 2nd rd pick and draft rights to Bogdanovic got Pho up to #8.
2015: Pick 19 plus two future 2nd rd picks got Wash up to 15 for Oubre
2015: Pick 31 and 36 plus future 2nd rd pick got us up to 24 for Tyus
2014: Picks 16 & 19 plus future 2nd rd pick for Chi up to 11 for McDermott
2013: Picks 14 & 21 got Utah up to #9 for Trey Burke
2012: Picks 24, 33 and 34 got Cle up to 17 for T Zeller

That's not insignificant, and happens alot recently. Now some of the deals actually ended up working for the other team that got the multiple picks so obviously that's the devil's advocate, but that doesn't mean that moving up cannot happen and with great success if you have a specific player you're targetting.
I think the 3 most recent at the top are great value move ups

So out of 9 examples you got one Mitchell and 8 other guys who project to be worse than JRich.

Did you ignore any other instances where picks were packaged for players who sucked? Just curious.

The value of Houston’s picks isn’t likely to be in the form of a superstar. As I’ve said previously, I’d counter with our option to flip picks in the even years. We’d give ourselves 7 years of cheap, youthful capital. If Houston had a year from hell one of those years, we’d reap enormous gains. The value of Houston’s picks is the ability to deepen the roster around our max players.

The value of this trade short term is banking on tanking. Not even tanking in the Madsen/3 sense, but just looking at our roster compared to the rest of the West. We’d get another high lotto pick this season to hopefully mold into the real prize from the Butler trade.

From there we could look at trading Teague to Phoenix for a 1. Potentially Gordon for a 1 somewhere else. Taj could be moved for a 2. Build up draft capital. Roll with Tyus/Okogie/Wiggins/Patton(G)/KAT in a youth movement while having the most draft capital in the league for the foreseeable future.

We’d have tons of cap space and tons of picks to be a 3rd team trade facilitator. There’s no way in hell I’d trade Gorgui with one of those 1s just to get rid of him. Instead I’d be looking to do the opposite until we’re back to competitive. Take on a bad deal while again obtaining 1s.

We’d eventually have to hit on a few quality players. But again, the value comes from our own 1 this year and likely next.

Regardless, the offer went from EG + maybe Tucker to four #1s within like 6 games. This is fantastic news for us. Stay patient. Let Miami and Houston bid against one another and wait for more mystery teams to enter.

Kris Dunn can't hit the broadside of the barn and has been a net negative player through 3 years. By taking him we passed on Jamal Murray and Buddy Hield, two guys many of us wanted. Not sure how that's considered a "decent pick".

Joboo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:15 am I'd do it for Eric Gordon and the 4 picks.

These picks are more valuable than this board is realizing and here is why:

#1 The picks are every other year so 2019, 2021, 2023, 2025 Is 33 year old CP3 still going to be anything in a few years? He already has injury issues.

#2 2019 1st Round Pick is a garbage pick we all know that but we might be able to shop that pick with Gourgi Dieng and get out from under that contract. Maybe we do something crazy in the offseason once Leonard leaves Toronto and shop Wiggins etc.

This is all about giving us flexibility to make some moves post Butler. This offer is not nearly as bad as rubes are making it out to be.

Eric Gordon doesn't have a ton left but he can be a quality 6th man for years to come or in a pinch a starter. Injuries have robbed him of being a star anymore but he is still a quality NBA player.

And while I know Thibs is still on the hot seat he does seem to have an eye for talent and trust him to draft the right players. Okogie looks like a steal at this moment and I think in the future KBD should be a good rotational player as well.

Late first round picks are less coveted than early 2nd round picks. No one wants the 30th pick in the draft versus the 31st. We're talking about a huge difference in guaranteeing a contract or not. Houston is going to be in that 27-30 range for a long time imo. Those picks aren't as tradeable as people here are saying.

I hate this deal. Makes no sense for us unless we're dumping some other players too and going full rebuild.

thinktank wrote: ↑Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:50 am

larryhagmansliver wrote: ↑Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:48 am

thinktank wrote: ↑Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:35 am

You can cherry pick examples but it would amount to trading Butler for very low odds of a JRich or better.

You're replying to statements that haven't been made?

Also you're aware that the Wolves aren't obligated to keep all the picks right? The value in this trade is not waiting out to see what we get with the four picks. it's the flexibility they give you. For instance, what do our pick, the Houston 2019 & 2021 get you come June next year? Your too one dimensional in your approach to this.

I’m comparing those picks to the value of JRich now.

Ah okay, so you created a new context for the posts you replied to.

thinktank wrote: ↑Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:50 am The picks have the same value to other teams as they do to us.

It’s not like magically those picks become valuable when you offer them to another team.

There you go again, I must admit I admire your conviction. You're like Descartes for the Trump age... I think, therefore it's true.

thinktank wrote: ↑Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:50 am
Think of it this way:

Those picks are so bad that Houston has to offer the maximum amount of picks allowable under the CBA.

That's one way to look at it I guess.

j2j wrote: ↑Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:42 am Kris Dunn can't hit the broadside of the barn and has been a net negative player through 3 years. By taking him we passed on Jamal Murray and Buddy Hield, two guys many of us wanted. Not sure how that's considered a "decent pick".

The Dunn pick was awful and likely cost us LaVine as a result. Had Thibs taken Murray, we probably could’ve still acquired Jimmy without trading LaVine. But because Dunn was so terrible his rookie year, he had basically no value in the trade.

Enormous mistake.

thinktank wrote: ↑Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:41 am

Oriole81 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:29 am Recent simple, not top of the first NBA draft trade ups...

2018: #16 pick and a 2021 first got Pho up to #10 for Mikal Bridges
2017: Picks 15 & 20 got Port to #10 for Zach Collins
2017: Pick #24 and Trey Lyles (distressed former lottery pick equals roughly a late first now) for Donovan Mitchell
2016: Picks 13 & 28, a 2020 2nd rd pick and draft rights to Bogdanovic got Pho up to #8.
2015: Pick 19 plus two future 2nd rd picks got Wash up to 15 for Oubre
2015: Pick 31 and 36 plus future 2nd rd pick got us up to 24 for Tyus
2014: Picks 16 & 19 plus future 2nd rd pick for Chi up to 11 for McDermott
2013: Picks 14 & 21 got Utah up to #9 for Trey Burke
2012: Picks 24, 33 and 34 got Cle up to 17 for T Zeller

That's not insignificant, and happens alot recently. Now some of the deals actually ended up working for the other team that got the multiple picks so obviously that's the devil's advocate, but that doesn't mean that moving up cannot happen and with great success if you have a specific player you're targetting.
I think the 3 most recent at the top are great value move ups

So out of 9 examples you got one Mitchell and 8 other guys who project to be worse than JRich.

Did you ignore any other instances where picks were packaged for players who sucked? Just curious.

I was more focusing on the fact that deals involving multiple lesser picks being packaged together to move up do happen more than people think, which provides add'l value for us heading into the next multiple drafts. The actual player itself being taken isn't as relevant though; just because one team messes up a pick doesn't mean it changes the market value of the pick swap for future deals. I only chose to include the player though to help jog people's memory about what deals I'm referring to.

And I'm not saying I want this more than a Richardson deal either, just that 4 first round picks is still significant. Too many people here were just poo-pooing it, like it's nothing.

Shams says the trade from the rockets would be Brandon Knight, Marquess Chriss, and 4 first round picks

Wolves have declined

Brett wrote: ↑Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:56 am Except all your examples depend on the Rockets suddenly becoming average. Yet it still demonstrates how trash and crapshooty the draft is.

Glen's more likely to trade the late 1st for a 2nd rounder to save cash.

Another piece of irony.
In the epic trade down of 2014 to save money to fire Rambis, the draft rights for these players all passed through MN at some point...

Donatas Motiejunas
Nicola Mirotic
Bogdon Bogdanovic
Chandler Parsons

All very good players taken past Pick 20.

UnFadeable21 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:54 am Shams says the trade from the rockets would be Brandon Knight, Marquess Chriss, and 4 first round picks

Wolves have declined

Gross.

With the luxury tax and repeater tax starting to impact teams, I think the value of late 1sts will go up. Getting a young guy on a guaranteed cheap deal will be more appealing to teams in tax hell than ever before.

A narrative on this board I’d challenge a bit is this belief that Houston is just a lock top 4 team in the league. The West is loaded. Facing LeBron in rd. 1 and then Utah in rd. 2 is no easy street to the WCF every year. Denver is young and improving. Dallas on the way up. Portland, NO, OKC no gimme. Obviously they could face GS earlier than WCF depending on seedings. They could easily go out rd 1 and convey pick #15 to us. They aren’t getting any younger and Jimmy/CP3 are fragile.

Our picks for the cake. Houston’s picks for the frosting.

Brett wrote: ↑Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:47 am I'll reiterate from the last round of Woj chatter. Woj has zero Wolves sources and is known to punish teams that don't give him info. He still hasn't expressed any official offers regarding JRich/Bam etc. It's always just "discussions could include such and such."

We still don't have a firm grasp on what's been offered/rejected.

But it sounds like no Gordon or Tucker. Just the picks and salary matches. The offer is complete trash.

I thought JRich/Waiters/first for Butler was the offer where they traded medicals.... I still do not want Waiters.

Brett wrote: ↑Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:54 am

Style wrote: ↑Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:49 am

j2j wrote: ↑Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:42 am Kris Dunn can't hit the broadside of the barn and has been a net negative player through 3 years. By taking him we passed on Jamal Murray and Buddy Hield, two guys many of us wanted. Not sure how that's considered a "decent pick".

The Dunn pick was awful and likely cost us LaVine as a result. Had Thibs taken Murray, we probably could’ve still acquired Jimmy without trading LaVine. But because Dunn was so terrible his rookie year, he had basically no value in the trade.

Enormous mistake.

Imagine a world where we trade Wigg for Butler and Murray or LaVine and picks for Kyrie.

Again, a knock on Thibs’ eye for talent. He had an entire year with Wiggins but didn’t offer him up in a deal for Kyrie who wanted to come here.

T_J wrote: ↑Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:11 am If Jimmy is gone, what happens to our record this year if we take the picks and like Brandon Knight + salary filler? Feels like a 35 win team, yes?

That's like a top 10 pick, perhaps packaging a couple of these possibly shittier picks gets you into the top 5. I don't know anything about this draft class, so perhaps that doesn't matter.

If Jimmy gets dealt, Thibs is gonna be gone, Taj is gonna be gone, Teague could be gone or only one year left, Rose gone, and it's a new roster around Towns, Wiggins, and Okogie....plus Dieng, Tyus, Bates, and a high pick.

All of that sounds like dog shit. The Wolves will be lucky to win 35 games without Jimmy. I'd rather make the playoffs one more time and let Butler walk. This team is gonna suck until it's moved to a different city. 4 late first round picks has little value in the NBA. Plus, why would Thibs care about picks in 2025? He will be long gone by then. Shit, he's gonna be gone at the end of this year.

For sure.. the issue I have with Thibs of course is he probably thinks he's going to get fired if they don't perform well this year so naturally he'll try to hold onto Butler as long as he can. Given the cap situation, we can't afford to let Butler walk with nothing in return though I'd do that over taking a crap deal. Nice to see some good teams struggling early so they start panicking.

Wolves fans .. 2-3 , Towns/Wiggins suck, trade Butler asap!
OKC .. 0 for...
Houston struggling. Lakers finally winning a couple..

Brett wrote: ↑Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:04 am

Style wrote: ↑Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:02 am With the luxury tax and repeater tax starting to impact teams, I think the value of late 1sts will go up. Getting a young guy on a guaranteed cheap deal will be more appealing to teams in tax hell than ever before.

A narrative on this board I’d challenge a bit is this belief that Houston is just a lock top 4 team in the league. The West is loaded. Facing LeBron in rd. 1 and then Utah in rd. 2 is no easy street to the WCF every year. Denver is young and improving. Dallas on the way up. Portland, NO, OKC no gimme. Obviously they could face GS earlier than WCF depending on seedings. They could easily go out rd 1 and convey pick #15 to us. They aren’t getting any younger and Jimmy/CP3 are fragile.

Our picks for the cake. Houston’s picks for the frosting.

oh boy

Here’s what we have for the alternative options:
1. Richardson + trash
2A. Keeping Jimmy and letting him walk
2B. Keeping Jimmy and taking $.25 in S&T at season’s end
3. Houston’s picks

None are great options, but I’m taking #3 and again playing the long game instead of taking Richardson and hopping on the NBA treadmill.

This offer gets us closer to our goal in a Butler trade. For that, I’m encouraged. I’ve said before, I wouldn’t do this exact deal, but there’s a counter to be made there. We now have Miami and Houston bidding against each other and the talks are focused on picks rather than 33-year-old role players.

Small Hands wrote: ↑Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:18 am

T_J wrote: ↑Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:11 am If Jimmy is gone, what happens to our record this year if we take the picks and like Brandon Knight + salary filler? Feels like a 35 win team, yes?

That's like a top 10 pick, perhaps packaging a couple of these possibly shittier picks gets you into the top 5. I don't know anything about this draft class, so perhaps that doesn't matter.

If Jimmy gets dealt, Thibs is gonna be gone, Taj is gonna be gone, Teague could be gone or only one year left, Rose gone, and it's a new roster around Towns, Wiggins, and Okogie....plus Dieng, Tyus, Bates, and a high pick.

All of that sounds like dog shit. The Wolves will be lucky to win 35 games without Jimmy. I'd rather make the playoffs one more time and let Butler walk. This team is gonna suck until it's moved to a different city. 4 late first round picks has little value in the NBA. Plus, why would Thibs care about picks in 2025? He will be long gone by then. Shit, he's gonna be gone at the end of this year.

End of the day, I believe Taylor can accept the trade so perhaps that was the appeal. Either way, Knight/Chriss is insulting. Gordon + 4 picks is a debate in itself... anything less... fuckin pass.

Jimmy ain't walking away from money. IOW, if we don't trade him he'll be signing here. He'll be disgruntled, but he'd be signing here. Trade hjim after that maybe.

j2j wrote: ↑Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:42 am Kris Dunn can't hit the broadside of the barn and has been a net negative player through 3 years. By taking him we passed on Jamal Murray and Buddy Hield, two guys many of us wanted. Not sure how that's considered a "decent pick".

I'm positive that thibs picked dunn because he thought of Rose. Yet another example of his inability to get over the bulls. We were fine at pg and desperately needed shooting. Flip would've taken Murray.




Rubio/jones
Lavine\Murray
Wiggins
Markaanen
Towns




That's a nice young core that would probably be ready to push for the playoffs. Fuck thibs. He ruined everything.

whiskerbiscuit wrote: ↑Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:32 am

j2j wrote: ↑Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:42 am Kris Dunn can't hit the broadside of the barn and has been a net negative player through 3 years. By taking him we passed on Jamal Murray and Buddy Hield, two guys many of us wanted. Not sure how that's considered a "decent pick".

I'm positive that thibs picked dunn because he thought of Rose. Yet another example of his inability to get over the bulls. We were fine at pg and desperately needed shooting. Flip would've taken Murray.




Rubio/jones
Lavine\Murray
Wiggins
Markaanen
Towns




That's a nice young core that would probably be ready to push for the playoffs. Fuck thibs. He ruined everything.

Aren't you the guy that says, who gives a fuck about the playoffs?

whiskerbiscuit wrote: ↑Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:08 pm
Only a wolves fan would think making the playoffs is an accomplishment.

Moses Scurry wrote: ↑Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:35 am

whiskerbiscuit wrote: ↑Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:32 am

j2j wrote: ↑Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:42 am Kris Dunn can't hit the broadside of the barn and has been a net negative player through 3 years. By taking him we passed on Jamal Murray and Buddy Hield, two guys many of us wanted. Not sure how that's considered a "decent pick".

I'm positive that thibs picked dunn because he thought of Rose. Yet another example of his inability to get over the bulls. We were fine at pg and desperately needed shooting. Flip would've taken Murray.




Rubio/jones
Lavine\Murray
Wiggins
Markaanen
Towns




That's a nice young core that would probably be ready to push for the playoffs. Fuck thibs. He ruined everything.

Aren't you the guy that says, who gives a fuck about the playoffs?

I'd love to make the playoffs with a young team. I just don't like blowing our wad early just to make the playoffs once then two steps backward.