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PGs and Wings and Defense

A place to discuss the MN Timberwolves
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thinktank
Posts: 26739
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:43 am

PGs and Wings and Defense

Post by thinktank »

It seems to me that if you’re a PG or Wing, your career is defined by your offensive abilities, and not your defense.

See Murray vs Dunn.

See Curry vs Rubio.

Can you name any PGs or Wings that are very good offensively, but their defense is so bad that they can’t have a role on a team?

I’m not sure I can.

But I can name MANY PGs and Wings that can’t play much defense but are verifiable forces on the offensive end, and therefore they play integral roles on their teams.

Just typin.
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somuchyummy
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Re: PGs and Wings and Defense

Post by somuchyummy »

you are missing the guys who are no longer in the league. shabbazz muhammed pops to mind. not bad offensively, horrible defensively - and out of the nba. i'm sure there are more. just saying - all O isn't an automatic ticket.
There is little difference between the memory of a real event and the memory of a dream.
thinktank
Posts: 26739
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:43 am

Re: PGs and Wings and Defense

Post by thinktank »

somuchyummy wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:57 am you are missing the guys who are no longer in the league. shabbazz muhammed pops to mind. not bad offensively, horrible defensively - and out of the nba. i'm sure there are more. just saying - all O isn't an automatic ticket.
Shabazz was not a verifiable offensive force.

32% three point shooter (average)
55% TS% (average)
0.84 assist/turnover ratio (NEGATIVE passing game)
23% usage rate (awful, because he always shot and never passed)

Anybody else we should look at to disprove my theory?
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somuchyummy
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Re: PGs and Wings and Defense

Post by somuchyummy »

thinktank wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:48 am
somuchyummy wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:57 am you are missing the guys who are no longer in the league. shabbazz muhammed pops to mind. not bad offensively, horrible defensively - and out of the nba. i'm sure there are more. just saying - all O isn't an automatic ticket.
Shabazz was not a verifiable offensive force.

32% three point shooter (average)
55% TS% (average)
0.84 assist/turnover ratio (NEGATIVE passing game)
23% usage rate (awful, because he always shot and never passed)

Anybody else we should look at to disprove my theory?
you've raised the bar from "good offensively" to "an offensive force". my point is that bazz was an offensive player first and foremost and he's no longer in the league. anybody want dennis smith jr on their team? my guess is that he'll have a short career. kevin knox is somewhat a tweener forward - but he does spend time at wing - and his career and rep went in the crapper because of his defensive deficiencies - and is only now looking up because he's working harder on D. carsen edwards and justin foreman-wright both came to the league as scorers first and foremost and neither hasn't made a dent yet (i don't think their roster spots are at all secure going forward) - and a guy like markus howard might not even get drafted. i mean, i think you are right in general - but i don't think it's a hard and fast rule.
There is little difference between the memory of a real event and the memory of a dream.
thinktank
Posts: 26739
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:43 am

Re: PGs and Wings and Defense

Post by thinktank »

somuchyummy wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:06 am
thinktank wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:48 am
somuchyummy wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:57 am you are missing the guys who are no longer in the league. shabbazz muhammed pops to mind. not bad offensively, horrible defensively - and out of the nba. i'm sure there are more. just saying - all O isn't an automatic ticket.
Shabazz was not a verifiable offensive force.

32% three point shooter (average)
55% TS% (average)
0.84 assist/turnover ratio (NEGATIVE passing game)
23% usage rate (awful, because he always shot and never passed)

Anybody else we should look at to disprove my theory?
you've raised the bar from "good offensively" to "an offensive force". my point is that bazz was an offensive player first and foremost and he's no longer in the league. anybody want dennis smith jr on their team? my guess is that he'll have a short career. kevin knox is somewhat a tweener forward - but he does spend time at wing - and his career and rep went in the crapper because of his defensive deficiencies - and is only now looking up because he's working harder on D. carsen edwards and justin foreman-wright both came to the league as scorers first and foremost and neither hasn't made a dent yet (i don't think their roster spots are at all secure going forward) - and a guy like markus howard might not even get drafted. i mean, i think you are right in general - but i don't think it's a hard and fast rule.
I didn’t raise the bar at all. I set the same bar in my OP.

I don’t think any of those guys are verifiable offensive forces.

It’s a good rule, I’m tellin ya!

:beer:
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j2j
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Re: PGs and Wings and Defense

Post by j2j »

Spazz was a horrible offensive player.
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bubu dubu.
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Re: PGs and Wings and Defense

Post by bubu dubu. »

j2j wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:32 pm Spazz was a horrible offensive player.
He used to shout some pretty offensive stuff.
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flexbuffchest
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Re: PGs and Wings and Defense

Post by flexbuffchest »

Well duh.

You can't win in this league as a team without an elite wing.
UnFadeable21 wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 5:55 pm Edwards Negatives:

Low IQ
Low Motor
Bad Shot Selection
Bad defense

Who does this remind you of?
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flexbuffchest
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Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:08 pm

Re: PGs and Wings and Defense

Post by flexbuffchest »

j2j wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:32 pm Spazz was a horrible offensive player.
And a horrible person. He once left someone stranded in Oregon!
UnFadeable21 wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 5:55 pm Edwards Negatives:

Low IQ
Low Motor
Bad Shot Selection
Bad defense

Who does this remind you of?
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j2j
Posts: 27781
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:43 pm

Re: PGs and Wings and Defense

Post by j2j »

I'm guessing theres a joke there that I didnt pick up on.
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zeitgeist
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Re: PGs and Wings and Defense

Post by zeitgeist »

RAPM has consistently shown this to be the case, Centers have the most impact on defense, point guards have the most impact on offense, generally. Though it's important to know there are outliers. As for whether a point guard or wing can have defense bad enough to not have a role, that's a very vague way of stating it because bench players have a role. I'd say Zach LaVine and Devin Booker, as they currently are very difficult to build a team around because their box score stats overstate their impact and their defense is so bad that they are a liability on that end.

Still, players are always some combination of offense and defense, most guys aren't a 10 on offense and a 0 on defense and for example, a guy like Jrue Holiday is incredibly valuable to a team because he's a big point guard that can run an offense and switch on defense and lock people down while being really effective.
mlhouse wrote: Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:52 pm Einstein has his area of expertise, I have mine.
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