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No One Is Talking About The Defense!

A place to discuss the MN Timberwolves
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flexbuffchest
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No One Is Talking About The Defense!

Post by flexbuffchest »

Biggest improvement as a team no one really talks about. Vanterpool has done wonders with this team.

https://stats.nba.com/teams/advanced/?s ... r%20Season

2019-20: 106.8 12th
2018-19: 112.2 24th

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The System™ can't be 100% modernized and fine tuned overnight but as long as the Wolves stick to it the better and more familiarized our most important players will become with it.

The #1 goal is getting Wiggins and KAT 100% comfortable and learn everything about The System™ inside and out. The more comfortable they are the easier it'll be to plug and play role players to better compliment them. Go through some of the rough learning bumps now rather than later.

Trust The pRosas™
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UnFadeable21 wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 5:55 pm Edwards Negatives:

Low IQ
Low Motor
Bad Shot Selection
Bad defense

Who does this remind you of?
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Beef Supreme
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Re: No One Is Talking About The Defense!

Post by Beef Supreme »

It’s so hard to judge. With the uptick in pace, we’re still giving up tons of points. It’s just apples and oranges compared to our slower systems from years past.
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j2j
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Re: No One Is Talking About The Defense!

Post by j2j »

So far we've put up our best Defensive Rating since the 2013-2014 season, and our best relative to the rest of the league since the 2005-2006 season.

It's amazing what happens when you modernize your defense too.

Trust the pRosas.
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ChrisPaulGeorgeHill
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Re: No One Is Talking About The Defense!

Post by ChrisPaulGeorgeHill »

Kudos to Vanterpool. Still early, but he’s done a very nice job so far.

I also think we have some guys that are high motor defenders and guys that while their motor aren’t high, they seem to possess defensive tools and skills that seem to translate well.

Roco
Okogie
Culver
Graham (still don’t care for him overall.
Layman
Wiggins
Teague (decent defender when he isn’t a moron)
Bell
Vonleh

Then you have KAT playing acceptable defense most nights.

That and it’s seems they work and communicate together rather well defensively.
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YBBR
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Re: No One Is Talking About The Defense!

Post by YBBR »

Pace in today's game is very fast. Especially so for our Wolves. So when they see the scores, they're like poor defense was being played. Not so! You watch the team and there is a noticeable improvement in understanding the scheme and how players work together within that scheme to devise effective deterrents.

They good.
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YBBR
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Re: No One Is Talking About The Defense!

Post by YBBR »

Beef Supreme wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:54 pm It’s so hard to judge. With the uptick in pace, we’re still giving up tons of points. It’s just apples and oranges compared to our slower systems from years past.
Some of is it is cyclical with the era too. The 80's teams played at a more rapid pace than the 90's and 00's teams. I think the 60's as well were very fast. Big emphasis on pace and shooting in the current era with how the rules are constructed.
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jodaman01
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Re: No One Is Talking About The Defense!

Post by jodaman01 »

So many here droned on and on the mantra that a hard ass defensive genius coach like THIBBS the red-faced gorilla (that was mine by the way) and his crack crew of dipshit assitant bobo’s would get these guys playing D. Also having a true selfless warrior who only wanted to win and was the hardest working player to ever wear an NBA uniform (just ask him) in Butler to stroke THIBBS ego and use him and be a rotten POS to KAT and Wiggs would be the best answer to getting better D.

Reading through many of the comments here and in other threads, all I can say is.......Congratulations. The deprogramming of the Thibblodytes has begun to take root. I am proud of you all.....enjoy the journey.

GO WOLVES!! :thumbsup:
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flexbuffchest
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Re: No One Is Talking About The Defense!

Post by flexbuffchest »

Speaking of Butler. He recently did an interview where he essentially said that there 76ers didn't work as hard as he (Jimmy) did. :lol:
UnFadeable21 wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 5:55 pm Edwards Negatives:

Low IQ
Low Motor
Bad Shot Selection
Bad defense

Who does this remind you of?
zeitgeist
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Re: No One Is Talking About The Defense!

Post by zeitgeist »

I did talk about it briefly but yeah the defense is the reason we are winning, our offense is actually doing considerably worse right now but hopefully that should regress to where it should be.
mlhouse wrote: Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:52 pm Einstein has his area of expertise, I have mine.
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Beef Supreme
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Re: No One Is Talking About The Defense!

Post by Beef Supreme »

zeitgeist wrote: Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:27 pm I did talk about it briefly but yeah the defense is the reason we are winning, our offense is actually doing considerably worse right now but hopefully that should regress to where it should be.
The offense is underperforming because outside of Towns and Wiggins, they can’t hit the 3. If the shooting comes up, the offense will look amazing. We’re getting the shots we want. It’s a matter of making them. Less Graham would help.
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j2j
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Re: No One Is Talking About The Defense!

Post by j2j »



Feels like we're so much more active than we used to be.
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j2j
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Re: No One Is Talking About The Defense!

Post by j2j »



Interesting numbers showing Culver's value among the 3.
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Moses Scurry
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Re: No One Is Talking About The Defense!

Post by Moses Scurry »

j2j wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:22 pm

Interesting numbers showing Culver's value among the 3.
Yeah, but Culver is not scoring 28 and losing games so he sucks. Dumbass.
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Re: No One Is Talking About The Defense!

Post by memyworld »

thinktank
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Re: No One Is Talking About The Defense!

Post by thinktank »

The offense is a part of this.

More passing and threes = less energy consumed.

Switching on D does that too.

It’s about gaining efficiency wherever you can find it.
winforlose
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Re: No One Is Talking About The Defense!

Post by winforlose »

thinktank wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:21 pm The offense is a part of this.

More passing and threes = less energy consumed.

Switching on D does that too.

It’s about gaining efficiency wherever you can find it.
That is true, but I want to add one thing. Because of small ball we end of giving up second chance points at a higher clip. The stats don’t always reflect how well we defended the first shot because they score on the possession during the second or third shot. Our PNR and PNP defense is weak, don’t get me wrong, but our man defense was underrated in the middle of the season. When KAT is back, if Ryan and Rosas will start G with him, our second chance points allowed will go down and our defense will be even better by the numbers. A better defensive scheme would help make up for the short comings, but overall when we want to play defense we can do a good job of it (as was seen these past few games.)
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Re: No One Is Talking About The Defense!

Post by thinktank »

winforlose wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:16 pm
thinktank wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:21 pm The offense is a part of this.

More passing and threes = less energy consumed.

Switching on D does that too.

It’s about gaining efficiency wherever you can find it.
That is true, but I want to add one thing. Because of small ball we end of giving up second chance points at a higher clip. The stats don’t always reflect how well we defended the first shot because they score on the possession during the second or third shot. Our PNR and PNP defense is weak, don’t get me wrong, but our man defense was underrated in the middle of the season. When KAT is back, if Ryan and Rosas will start G with him, our second chance points allowed will go down and our defense will be even better by the numbers. A better defensive scheme would help make up for the short comings, but overall when we want to play defense we can do a good job of it (as was seen these past few games.)
Going small yields 2s and that’s better than 3s.
winforlose
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Re: No One Is Talking About The Defense!

Post by winforlose »

thinktank wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:17 pm
winforlose wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:16 pm
thinktank wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:21 pm The offense is a part of this.

More passing and threes = less energy consumed.

Switching on D does that too.

It’s about gaining efficiency wherever you can find it.
That is true, but I want to add one thing. Because of small ball we end of giving up second chance points at a higher clip. The stats don’t always reflect how well we defended the first shot because they score on the possession during the second or third shot. Our PNR and PNP defense is weak, don’t get me wrong, but our man defense was underrated in the middle of the season. When KAT is back, if Ryan and Rosas will start G with him, our second chance points allowed will go down and our defense will be even better by the numbers. A better defensive scheme would help make up for the short comings, but overall when we want to play defense we can do a good job of it (as was seen these past few games.)
Going small yields 2s and that’s better than 3s.
Not sure that’s true in either case. You want teams shooting low percentage shots, not shots at the rim. Also, small ball means second chance shots that are often uncontested threes (due to the broken floor nature of the players trying to rebound rather than be in defensive position. Small ball is more about offense than defense. Your hope is that your team gets to the rim because your guys are smaller and more able to beat bigger slower power forwards. On defense small ball helps with switching, but it does not help with rebounding or low post play, both of which yield high percentage shots, often at the rim or for 3.
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Re: No One Is Talking About The Defense!

Post by thinktank »

It’s tough for bigs to pass up an easy 2 for an assist on a deep ball.

Bigs just don’t pass much.

And it’s not like we’re going small everywhere. Only at PF.
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Re: No One Is Talking About The Defense!

Post by memyworld »

Two Things:

1. The Wolves have the second-best defensive rating in the league since KAT went down. They're still 5-10 in those games.

2. In his weekly 10 Things feature, Zach Lowe highlighted an interesting defensive strategy used by the Milwaukee Bucks:

The Bucks, going under
Almost every team scurries under picks against bad shooters, but Milwaukee does it more dramatically and against many more players. The Bucks treat every so-so shooter like Ben Simmons. Present Milwaukee with Kris Dunn or RJ Barrett (two recent examples) and its on-ball defenders hang almost in the paint -- a step or two further back than most teams prefer. They form a shell that is really hard to puncture.

They don't deviate if some Dunn type hits a couple of long 2s. The Bucks understand math. They know their scheme plays mind games with opposing shooters -- even non-terrible ones. They're going so far under. This is embarrassing. Am I really supposed to keep shooting? Boom -- the shot clock is down to 8, and you've accomplished nothing.

This is such low-hanging fruit. Every team should imitate Mike Budenholzer's exaggerated "go under" ethos.

Of course, later playoff rounds offer very few awful shooters -- and almost none beyond Simmons who handle the ball. It would be interesting to see Milwaukee's approach in a series against the Miami Heat and Jimmy Butler -- shooting just 27% from deep this season and 36% for his career on long 2s.
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Re: No One Is Talking About The Defense!

Post by Thrillkill »

Defensive rating! Let's see, how do I refute that? Oh, Kevin Love was rated a plus defender by that made up bullshit metric. :lol:
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Re: No One Is Talking About The Defense!

Post by T_J »

Thrillkill wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:15 am Defensive rating! Let's see, how do I refute that? Oh, Kevin Love was rated a plus defender by that made up bullshit metric. :lol:

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Re: No One Is Talking About The Defense!

Post by Moses Scurry »

Thrillkill wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:15 am Defensive rating! Let's see, how do I refute that? Oh, Kevin Love was rated a plus defender by that made up bullshit metric. :lol:
I could agree with you if you broke down why it's a BS metric. Do you know how it's derived? What are the stats weakpoints? What data points are missing? Why can't a defensive metric have value?

You offer nothing, just a blanket statement, it's bad, duh.

I bet if the rating said, our defense rating under Rosas cratered, you would jump all over it.
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Re: No One Is Talking About The Defense!

Post by Thrillkill »

Moses Scurry wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:57 am
Thrillkill wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:15 am Defensive rating! Let's see, how do I refute that? Oh, Kevin Love was rated a plus defender by that made up bullshit metric. :lol:
I could agree with you if you broke down why it's a BS metric. Do you know how it's derived? What are the stats weakpoints? What data points are missing? Why can't a defensive metric have value?

You offer nothing, just a blanket statement, it's bad, duh.

I bet if the rating said, our defense rating under Rosas cratered, you would jump all over it.
I offer our record. I offer every game. Right there on the TV. And I have never EVER said anything but it's a bullshit made up geek stat. Kevin Love plus defender.
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Moses Scurry
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Re: No One Is Talking About The Defense!

Post by Moses Scurry »

Thrillkill wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:34 pm
Moses Scurry wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:57 am
Thrillkill wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:15 am Defensive rating! Let's see, how do I refute that? Oh, Kevin Love was rated a plus defender by that made up bullshit metric. :lol:
I could agree with you if you broke down why it's a BS metric. Do you know how it's derived? What are the stats weakpoints? What data points are missing? Why can't a defensive metric have value?

You offer nothing, just a blanket statement, it's bad, duh.

I bet if the rating said, our defense rating under Rosas cratered, you would jump all over it.
I offer our record. I offer every game. Right there on the TV. And I have never EVER said anything but it's a bullshit made up geek stat. Kevin Love plus defender.
Great insight, proves you are a fraud. Thanks!
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Re: No One Is Talking About The Defense!

Post by zeitgeist »

Thrillkill wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:15 am Defensive rating! Let's see, how do I refute that? Oh, Kevin Love was rated a plus defender by that made up bullshit metric. :lol:
Basketball is a "made up" sport.

Also, you understand that this defensive rating in this context is measuring the TEAM defense and not trying to filter down to an individuals contributions, right? It's literally a measure of how many points your team allows per game and then flattening it out for every team to 100 possessions.
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Re: No One Is Talking About The Defense!

Post by Beef Supreme »

NotRasho wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:19 pm Its just because the metric heavily values rebounding. While that may not be considered "defense" in terms of stopping a guy from putting it in the hoop, successfully grabbing defensive boards has an impact on lowering the opponents chances to score. The possession doesnt end when the shot is missed, it ends when you secure the ball.

The reality is great rebounders limit opponents chances, which helps your teams defensive outcomes. Now obviously if a guy is a total swinging gate that will outweigh his positive rebounding impact, but this will also show in the metrics.
Agreed.


Defensive rebounding is part of defense. What good is holding an opponent to 38% shooting if you give them 15 offensive rebounds to offset that? Offensive rebounds often lead to immediate put-back layups and dunks or to open 3s as guys leave their defensive assignment to either get the ball or to leak downcourt early in anticipation of a teammate getting the ball.

It would be interesting to see what the eFG% of shots taken after a live-ball offensive rebound is compared to the first shot taken in a possession or after a dead ball. I would imagine it's noticeably higher. But I could be wrong.
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Re: No One Is Talking About The Defense!

Post by somuchyummy »

is there an easy way to find out how the wolves are rebounding when they win vs. when they lose? haven't found that stat yet. especially the differential. feels like when we win, we've been the better rebounding team - when we lose, we don't get as many as the other guys. but i'd like to see numbers rather than just go with my gut.
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