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Is KAT best offensive big man in the NBA?

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Beef Supreme
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Re: Is KAT best offensive big man in the NBA?

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j2j wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:09 pm
Beef Supreme wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 6:11 pm
j2j wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 5:46 pm Wouldn't that assume Hakeem wouldn't add to his game? Dude was insanely talented and driven.

Compare Hakeem to Duncan. Or Hakeem to Jokic? Or Anthony Davis?

And really the dominant, championship caliber players have been LeBron, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, Michael, Bird, Magic going back 35 years. Now it's Kawhi, Durant, Steph... Obviously the 3pt shooting allows Steph to enter the discussion, but it's not like wings havent been championship leaders for decades.

If Michael doesn't get suspended and essentially miss 2 seasons does Hakeem even get 2 rings? Or does Chicago win 8 straight?
That’s a different argument. This is more about style and how the game has changed than Olajuwon specifically. I lament the loss of diversity from the offensive game of the nba. This Olajuwon thought exercise explains that.

But it’s apparently what the nba wants. They keep tweaking the rules to make the 3 better and make the inside game less relevant. This 3pt-centric era of advanced metrics has made the inside game obsolete. I mourn that. The game is not as interesting as it was. There is very little contrast of styles anymore. It’s just who shoots the 3 better.


But yea a different conversation about transporting a 21 year-old Olajuwon to 2019 and allowing him to grow into today’s game could be made.

Chicago and Jordan may have won 8 straight, but twice Olajuwon’s rockets came out of the western conference. So they would have been Jordan’s opponents in those finals. Even if Jordan triumphed, clearly Olajuwon’s teams would be considered “championship caliber.”
Maybe not "championship 1A caliber", but this conversation ignores the talents of Gobert, Drummond, Vucevic, Capela, Aldridge, Adams, Davis, Ayton, Harrell, Sabonis, Allen, Bam, Favors, Jordan, and others who are quality big men who influence games yet don't shoot the 3 very often.

If Shaq happened to come around next year, I dont think anyone would start forcing him to shoot the 3. He'd still he Shaq. But he's such a historical outlier to compare anyone to him is flawed. Drop Hakeem into today's game and he likely would be too.

But as you said, if Hakeem was in high school today he's probably similar to Embiid where he does stretch out to the 3 point line.

I don't see anything wrong with that.
If the bar is “quality” and “influence,” then yes. Olajuwon could be a quality player and influence games. But if the bar is “centerpiece” and “mvp,” then an Olajuwon-like talent would not be in the conversation.

Look at those names you listed. Drummond? Capela? I agree with that. Those are the players he’s be compared to today. Not the elite difference-makers and impact-players in the game like he was in his day. He wouldn’t sniff the mvp conversation today. Just like capela, who is a nice player.


The modern nba would reduce hall of famer Hakeem Olajuwon to a “nice player.” And I think that sucks.
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Re: Is KAT best offensive big man in the NBA?

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I think you missed my point.

Hakeem is much more talented than those guys. He wouldn't be reduced to their level. My point was if guys of even of just that talent level can be effective, a guy as skilled as Olajuwon would still be MVP caliber. He's Gobert with an offensive game. A rich man's Embiid without the 3pt shot.
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Re: Is KAT best offensive big man in the NBA?

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j2j wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:48 pm I think you missed my point.

Hakeem is much more talented than those guys. He wouldn't be reduced to their level. My point was if guys of even of just that talent level can be effective, a guy as skilled as Olajuwon would still be MVP caliber. He's Gobert with an offensive game. A rich man's Embiid without the 3pt shot.
Disagree. He’s not efficient enough. If you give him the 20+ shots, you’ll be outscored by teams that run the modern 3pt-centric offenses. If you don’t give him that many shots, then he’s not your offensive centerpiece.

The math is not on his side.
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Re: Is KAT best offensive big man in the NBA?

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these arguments are always lopsided in favor of today. memory fades. and it always points out those players who wouldn't be effective in the modern game. for some reason, larry bird gets thrown in this pile - but from what i see today and what i remember from back then, larry bird is basically luka doncic except for being 3 inches taller. luka seems to be doing "alright". but no... larry would struggle. sigh.

but what about old school players who would do better today? here's one - jerry west. why is west never mentioned as a player who would kill it today? usually, again, it's ... oh, jerry would struggle. how would jerry west struggle in today's league? especially with rules that handcuff defenses and allow scorers the advantage of basically never calling traveling violations? smart as a whip, competitive as all fuck, he'd be playing PG - 6-4 with a 6-9 wingspan along with great hops, a defensive and steals beast, quickest hands in the league - and, oh yeah, that three point line he'd be inclined to use to great advantage. jerry west could average 35 ppg in today's nba - but he'd probably be passing up shots to keep his teammates involved and winning games.
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Re: Is KAT best offensive big man in the NBA?

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Re: Is KAT best offensive big man in the NBA?

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somuchyummy wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:21 pm these arguments are always lopsided in favor of today. memory fades. and it always points out those players who wouldn't be effective in the modern game. for some reason, larry bird gets thrown in this pile - but from what i see today and what i remember from back then, larry bird is basically luka doncic except for being 3 inches taller. luka seems to be doing "alright". but no... larry would struggle. sigh.

but what about old school players who would do better today? here's one - jerry west. why is west never mentioned as a player who would kill it today? usually, again, it's ... oh, jerry would struggle. how would jerry west struggle in today's league? especially with rules that handcuff defenses and allow scorers the advantage of basically never calling traveling violations? smart as a whip, competitive as all fuck, he'd be playing PG - 6-4 with a 6-9 wingspan along with great hops, a defensive and steals beast, quickest hands in the league - and, oh yeah, that three point line he'd be inclined to use to great advantage. jerry west could average 35 ppg in today's nba - but he'd probably be passing up shots to keep his teammates involved and winning games.
Bird and West were both perimeter guys that probably would benefit from today's era.
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Re: Is KAT best offensive big man in the NBA?

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Shooting, passing, dictating a fast tempo, driving to the rim these will always be fundamentally great things in basketball. Big men historically have not provided these things to the extent that perimeter players have and while big men can be great offensively, save for a few exceptions, they do not reach the highs that perimeter players do. Taking 15-20 seconds of the shot clock to position for a post up shot is simply not as effective as the other things I mentioned. In rare exceptions some big men can really pass well out of the post but Hakeem wasn't a great passer.

Yes, the rules have provided perimeter guys with more of an advantage but a lot of that was coming off the heels of the 1998-2004ish time period when hand checking and illegal defense was done away with which happened to be the most offensively stilted time period ever. A lot of this resurgence is built off of the Nash Suns teams which emphasized pace, ball movement and shooting, interesting.
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Re: Is KAT best offensive big man in the NBA?

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sincere question: all this fast paced play and getting shots off early in the shot clock, doesn't it also just give your opponent the ball more often as well? if your shots aren't dropping at a fantastic rate, doesn't this just give your opponent more opportunities to score and make your squad play defense more often? seems like in the end it all would even out. doesn't a two point win at 105-103 mean the same as a two point win at 125-123?
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Re: Is KAT best offensive big man in the NBA?

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somuchyummy wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:51 am sincere question: all this fast paced play and getting shots off early in the shot clock, doesn't it also just give your opponent the ball more often as well? if your shots aren't dropping at a fantastic rate, doesn't this just give your opponent more opportunities to score and make your squad play defense more often? seems like in the end it all would even out. doesn't a two point win at 105-103 mean the same as a two point win at 125-123?
Yes. And this is desirable in an offense designed around shooting.

By its nature, shooting is a volume game. Even good shooters go through cold spells. But the more shots you take, the more it evens out and you end up with a result close to your average. So if you have good shooters, you want as many possessions as possible so your good shooting averages will prevail. If the number of shots is low, it increases the chances that a dry spell will sink you.

If you have bad shooters, you want to slow the game down and limit possessions and hope you get lucky. See the Mike Fratello (sp?) Cavs teams of the 90s.
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Re: Is KAT best offensive big man in the NBA?

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Slim Jokic comin' for that #1 spot.

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Re: Is KAT best offensive big man in the NBA?

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memyworld wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 2:04 pm Slim Jokic comin' for that #1 spot.

The next KLove!
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Re: Is KAT best offensive big man in the NBA?

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LordNu wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:28 pm
memyworld wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 2:04 pm Slim Jokic comin' for that #1 spot.

The next KLove!
Lol. I would laugh if that happened. KLove went to dodo once he got slim.
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Re: Is KAT best offensive big man in the NBA?

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Jokic is a sweaty ass potato. An effective one, but a potato nonetheless. A timeout could get called one minute into the 1st quarter, and he'd pant his way to the bench dripping in sweat, then come out of the timeout in a half court set with his hands on his knees, get the inbound pass and lazily throw a dime to a cutter.

I seriously think he worked on his skills as a passer so much because it requires less effort to throw a pass, than it does to make a post move.
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Re: Is KAT best offensive big man in the NBA?

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https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/timb ... xt-season/
Towns is essentially a perfect offensive player. He just shot 41.2 percent on 7.9 attempts from beyond the arc per game. No other seven-footer in NBA history has ever hit that percentage on even five attempts per game, per basketball reference. Despite spending all of that time behind the arc, he still finished 24th in the NBA in offensive rebounding rate. He might be the NBA's fastest rolling big man. He grew into a high-level passer this season, dishing out a career-high 4.4 assists per game. He has no discernible weaknesses on that end of the floor. Building an elite offense around him should be relatively simple.
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Re: Is KAT best offensive big man in the NBA?

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Hoop Dreams wrote: Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:45 pm https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/timb ... xt-season/
Towns is essentially a perfect offensive player. He just shot 41.2 percent on 7.9 attempts from beyond the arc per game. No other seven-footer in NBA history has ever hit that percentage on even five attempts per game, per basketball reference. Despite spending all of that time behind the arc, he still finished 24th in the NBA in offensive rebounding rate. He might be the NBA's fastest rolling big man. He grew into a high-level passer this season, dishing out a career-high 4.4 assists per game. He has no discernible weaknesses on that end of the floor. Building an elite offense around him should be relatively simple.
Yeah, we need shooters and cutters and we can have a good offense.
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Re: Is KAT best offensive big man in the NBA?

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bubu dubu. wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:48 pm Jokic is a sweaty ass potato. An effective one, but a potato nonetheless. A timeout could get called one minute into the 1st quarter, and he'd pant his way to the bench dripping in sweat, then come out of the timeout in a half court set with his hands on his knees, get the inbound pass and lazily throw a dime to a cutter.

I seriously think he worked on his skills as a passer so much because it requires less effort to throw a pass, than it does to make a post move.
Reminds me a bit of old Arvydas Sabonis that way. He wasn’t so much fat as he was playing with broken-down knees, but the on-court results looked the same.
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Re: Is KAT best offensive big man in the NBA?

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He is certainly the most talented. Depending on what you consider a big. Know who else was the most talented big in the league? Love. Best rebounder, best shooter, excellent post moves. And look what became of him. Fell in love with the 3, never played D, and he became a 3rd star and eventually thought of as one of the most untradable. That's the current track of Towns.

So incredibly simple for him to be a top 5 MVP candidate every year. Play D to your ability and don't fall in love with the 3. Stop whining and play hard. That's it. That makes us a winner and him not a loser. And that's what he is right now. That's what Love was. Love never won anything until he had the best player ever in Lebron, Mr. Clutch in Kyrie, and Tristan guarding 2 guys and gobbling up boards Love would get if he wasn't standing at the 3. Towns never won when not carried by Butler and then he ran him off. You are what you do and Towns loses. No reason not to think after this long layoff that he comes back fuming and playing D like the beginning of last year. That lasted about 10 games. He plays that way all the time and we and he are winners. He doesn't and all of you will need to admit he is a loser. A star? sure. Name and numbers make you an NBA star. Superstar? Not even close. All superstars win. And they do what it takes to win. If winning isn't priority 1 you are a loser. Right now he is concerned with HIM playing well over the TEAM winning. That's the definition of loser.
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Re: Is KAT best offensive big man in the NBA?

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KAT's defense is so weird to me because coming out of college he was considered a potential elite defender. It was one of the huge pluses he had over Okafor. He was a good defender, who could stretch the defense, and score from the FT line.

And after having Sam Mitchell and Tom Thibodeau as coaches KAT's defense is a glaring weakness...
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Re: Is KAT best offensive big man in the NBA?

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j2j wrote: Sat Jun 13, 2020 3:41 pm KAT's defense is so weird to me because coming out of college he was considered a potential elite defender. It was one of the huge pluses he had over Okafor. He was a good defender, who could stretch the defense, and score from the FT line.

And after having Sam Mitchell and Tom Thibodeau as coaches KAT's defense is a glaring weakness...
don't forget a year of mentoring under KG.

it's almost like KAT made a decision once he got to the nba that D wasn't going to be important to him.
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Re: Is KAT best offensive big man in the NBA?

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j2j wrote: Sat Jun 13, 2020 3:41 pm KAT's defense is so weird to me because coming out of college he was considered a potential elite defender. It was one of the huge pluses he had over Okafor. He was a good defender, who could stretch the defense, and score from the FT line.

And after having Sam Mitchell and Tom Thibodeau as coaches KAT's defense is a glaring weakness...
I doubt it's any coach he's had, it's him. We just didn't see it in college, I think his really high foul rate combined with the low MPG masked his deficiencies and we overlooked that, and I think playing against far inferior players in college was part of it as well.
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Re: Is KAT best offensive big man in the NBA?

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Beef Supreme wrote: Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:47 am
Hoop Dreams wrote: Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:45 pm https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/timb ... xt-season/
Towns is essentially a perfect offensive player. He just shot 41.2 percent on 7.9 attempts from beyond the arc per game. No other seven-footer in NBA history has ever hit that percentage on even five attempts per game, per basketball reference. Despite spending all of that time behind the arc, he still finished 24th in the NBA in offensive rebounding rate. He might be the NBA's fastest rolling big man. He grew into a high-level passer this season, dishing out a career-high 4.4 assists per game. He has no discernible weaknesses on that end of the floor. Building an elite offense around him should be relatively simple.
Yeah, we need shooters and cutters and we can have a good offense.
Our offense was pretty good after the trades last year
UnFadeable21 wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 5:55 pm Edwards Negatives:

Low IQ
Low Motor
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Bad defense

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Re: Is KAT best offensive big man in the NBA?

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flexbuffchest wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:23 pm
Beef Supreme wrote: Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:47 am
Yeah, we need shooters and cutters and we can have a good offense.
Our offense was pretty good after the trades last year
Agreed. And that was with only having Towns and Russell together for like one game, right?
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Re: Is KAT best offensive big man in the NBA?

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Beef Supreme wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:28 pm
flexbuffchest wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:23 pm
Beef Supreme wrote: Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:47 am

Yeah, we need shooters and cutters and we can have a good offense.
Our offense was pretty good after the trades last year
Agreed. And that was with only having Towns and Russell together for like one game, right?
And Beasley. Those 3 should have our offense humming. Then fill it out with people who understand off ball movement and cutting and BOOM.

Defense would pretty much always be an issue but we gotta try and build with what we got
UnFadeable21 wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 5:55 pm Edwards Negatives:

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Re: Is KAT best offensive big man in the NBA?

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flexbuffchest wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:49 pm
Beef Supreme wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:28 pm
flexbuffchest wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:23 pm

Our offense was pretty good after the trades last year
Agreed. And that was with only having Towns and Russell together for like one game, right?
And Beasley. Those 3 should have our offense humming. Then fill it out with people who understand off ball movement and cutting and BOOM.

Defense would pretty much always be an issue but we gotta try and build with what we got
Beasley is a nice fit. He’s a pretty good shooter and pretty good cutter. Not great at either but good enough at both. That’s nice. Okogie is a great cutter, but a poor shooter. Culver is an okay cutter and a poor shooter, but projects to be at least decent at both. We don’t have a big man who’s a great fit right now. Naz may have some upside as a shooter, but is probably a bench guy. Layman is an okay slasher and shooter, but is undersized as a big and doesn’t defend or rebound. Hernangomez was probably the best fit. He shot really well for us, but that will likely regress to the mean. He doesn’t offer anything defensively either, but at least he can rebound a little.

Finding a 4/5 that can play with Towns offensively (shoot and/or cut and not just be a space eater inside) while helping him a little defensively is the team’s #1 priority.


None of this is really news, I guess.
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my hope is that rosas did so much dealing last year that he's done with it for awhile and we can now see what we've got - along with 3 picks.
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Re: Is KAT best offensive big man in the NBA?

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j2j wrote: Sat Jun 13, 2020 3:41 pm KAT's defense is so weird to me because coming out of college he was considered a potential elite defender. It was one of the huge pluses he had over Okafor. He was a good defender, who could stretch the defense, and score from the FT line.

And after having Sam Mitchell and Tom Thibodeau as coaches KAT's defense is a glaring weakness...
He has absolutely no self motivation to play D. Played hard in college trying to make a name because Cal wouldn't let him shoot outside and played him 20 minutes a game. Then he was so scared of KG he continued. As soon as he was an obvious offensive force he quit. I gave him rhythm last year because he started off great. Great effort. Then the idiot's mandate and his crappy coach left him alone in the paint on D and you could tell exactly when he just said fuck it.

Most people don't understand anything about defense. It is not scheme. At all. It is all effort and responsibility to your team and teammates. Certainly a coach can kill your D, but the best defensive coaches do not have ingenious plans, or innovative schemes. They are not some kind of guru's who can get chumps to defend. You can not coach individual effort. You can only bench it. What all good defensive coaches have in common is they make it clear if you don't play it you won't play. Then you will be traded. They value tough smart role players and will sub them in for a star the second they see a "tired" effort on D. They don't gimmick D they expect guys to get through screens, help and recover. Not the bullshit switch everything D that is killing the NBA.

Now look at all those things. We do none. We don't expect stars to play D. We don't value good defenders. We don't acquire them and the one's we have either don't play or are inconsequential in a switch everything D because teams force the bad defenders to switch. We signed "defensive guru" Vanterpool. How'd that work out? We are an all time bad D.And management doesn't care. Said when we hired him that either it means we are taking D seriously and it's a great hire or he was tanking his own career.

No coach will ever get Towns to be motivated on D. And even given the absolute fact that defense is contagious not even teammates can do it. It's on him. But if I'm his coach, or his teammate, or his agent, or his friend, or a guy in the stands, I'm telling him straight out that he is one season away from being labeled a loser. There were no shortage of pundits hinting at that last year.
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