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Grade Gersson Rosas' First Off-Season with Timberwolves

A place to discuss the MN Timberwolves

What grade does Gersson Rosas get this far into his career with the MN Timberwolves?

A
4
8%
B
19
40%
C
10
21%
D
14
29%
F
1
2%
 
Total votes: 48

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Re: Grade Gersson Rosas' First Off-Season with Timberwolves

Post by Decker23 »

irishman89 wrote: Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:15 pm
Decker23 wrote: Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:13 pm Joe Bag'O Donuts from Chaska could have done the exact same job as Rosas has... and you would have approved? Rosas is making more money than you ever will in your life, and you approve of a losing franchise for the next 2-3 years minimum? True north... smh. Niles Standish could be a better GM.
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Re: Grade Gersson Rosas' First Off-Season with Timberwolves

Post by boxter432 »

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Re: Grade Gersson Rosas' First Off-Season with Timberwolves

Post by mlhouse »

WHile some people claim you need time to evaluate, his first off-season (to date) can be evaluated from simple, but substantial way.

Did Rosas use the 2019 offseason to improve this team for the future?

And, I would claim that the answer is a resounding no. Lets look at the moves.

1. The obvious biggest move of the offseason, like usual, was our lottery pick in the NBA draft. Rosas traded our #11 pick plus Dario Saric to obtain the #6 pick. With the 6th pick he selected Jarrett Culver. This move has been hashed over a lot, but in general, I believe Culver was a very overrated player and Saric a very underrated player. If the reason to trade Saric was because we did not want to extend him to a significant contract, this underscores his value.

2. Signing Jordan Bell to a one year minimum contract.

3. Signing Vonleh to a one year, $2 million contract.

4. Obtaining Shabazz Napier and Taveon Graham as a 3rd party facilitator to the Durant sign and trade.

5. Using the Saric TPE to make a sign and trade deal with Portland for Jake Layman.

Did any of these moves improve the team for the future?

First, signing a player to a one year contract or acquiring a player with one year left on the contract is an almost impossible way of building for the future. These players only have non-Bird rights meaning that a team can only resign the player for up to 120% of their previous salary. To sign the player to anything above that total requires either cap room or an exception. The players the Wolves signed are all on virtual minimum contracts so if any of them have a good year the Wolves are really handcuffed in being able to retain those players going forward.

Second, I like the Layman signing. I think the contract was reasonable. Using the TPE in the sign and trade allowed the Wolves retain their other exceptions in case any other moves was possible. Layman has some reasonable upside and athletic ability and is the type of player who could develop given a solid level of rotation time. In some ways, Layman is almost equivalent to drafting an older college player in the mid-first rounds. While it is nice to see a creative usage of the TPE (a rarity in Wolves land) and the signing is a reasonable one, it is a very minor addition and nothing unique, and could have occured independent of the Culver trade.

Third, I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I really do not see the point in helping the Warriors facilitate a sign and trade acquiring Russell. That seems like borrowing your car to the guy who is going out on a date with your hot ex-girlfriend and knowing he is going to bang her in your backseat. In the end, this was a financial move by Glen Taylor. The cash from Golden St. in this transaction essentially creates two "free" roster spots for the season occupied by two players on minimal one year deals. This does nothing to move the franchise forward except save Taylor money and hte two roster spots could be used in more valuable ways.

Fourth, the Wolves did not add any future assets in any moves. Our future draft asset cupboard remains as bare as it was before the offseason began. Since Taylor focused on the financial aspects of the 3-way trade with Golden St and Brooklyn, we did not even get a 2nd round pick for the efforts.

Fifth, Jarrett Culver is truly the critical issue in the offseason and Culver's value must be greater that Dario Saric and whatever player we would have drafted with our original pick. I think this is a tall order. I think Culver will be a good player in the NBA but I think his offensive upside is Saric (positinally adjusted) at best. He had more of a defensive profile, but I think his defense is very overrated because he played in the TT defensive systems. Against top level competiiton, Culver struggled and he particularly struggled in the NCAA tournament. THe other question to understand his upside is fit. Where/how is Culver going to play given the other wing players the team has.

Lastly, while the NBA is become more of a positionless league, you can still look at the different position groups to try to evaluate how this team is going forward. And that analysis is pretty dismal. Right now, since Rosas went with Culver in the draft and chose not to match Ty Jones, there is not a PG type player on the roster that will be on the team next season. Sure, PG can be addressed into the future, when the entire depth of the position must be addressed in a year that can cause a lot of problems and can make it a disaster if you make a mistake.

Likewise, the PF position group now consists of a Robert Covington stop gap, Dieng, and two guys on min contract one year deals. Moving Covington to PF, which seems to be the plan, means you are weakening the defense at a critical perimeter position (the Wolves weakness) and moving a player that is a high level defender to a postion they project to be less of a defensive value. And the position looks suspect given they have no guaranteed young player to back that up.

It is unlikely that this 36 win team got any better. It can be argued it got a lot worse, at least for the beginning of the season before any of the young guys can develop into their rotation spots. Having two critical position groups that need to be addressed is a significant handicap given that the team will not have salary cap flexibility again next season, did not obtain any future draft assets, nor have a lot of players with significant trade value.

Not drafting a PG with the 6th pick was a major error given the way the rest of the offseason played out. This cannot be excused and there is nothing that Rosas did that can come even close to overcoming it. If he drafts a PG type player like Coby White then in the following lottery he could have addressed the remaining hole in the rotation. What this likely means is that what could have potentially been a fast rebuild, the rebuild will take much longer than it should and we are going to have to rely on Wiggins and Towns improving in the new offense that Coach Saunders is implementing.
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Re: Grade Gersson Rosas' First Off-Season with Timberwolves

Post by sh1mmyya »

You plan on getting that published, mlhouse?
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Re: Grade Gersson Rosas' First Off-Season with Timberwolves

Post by KevinBaconIsNotMyHero »

sh1mmyya wrote: Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:31 pm You plan on getting that published, mlhouse?
Who is publishing that?
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Re: Grade Gersson Rosas' First Off-Season with Timberwolves

Post by sh1mmyya »

KevinBaconIsNotMyHero wrote: Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:35 pm
sh1mmyya wrote: Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:31 pm You plan on getting that published, mlhouse?
Who is publishing that?
Publishers Clearing House?
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Re: Grade Gersson Rosas' First Off-Season with Timberwolves

Post by KevinBaconIsNotMyHero »

sh1mmyya wrote: Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:38 pm
KevinBaconIsNotMyHero wrote: Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:35 pm
sh1mmyya wrote: Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:31 pm You plan on getting that published, mlhouse?
Who is publishing that?
Publishers Clearing House?
:lol: :thumbsup:
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Re: Grade Gersson Rosas' First Off-Season with Timberwolves

Post by mlhouse »

sh1mmyya wrote: Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:31 pm You plan on getting that published, mlhouse?
Sorry, I forget sometimes that you and most of the other Froobs have an IQ of almost 45.
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Re: Grade Gersson Rosas' First Off-Season with Timberwolves

Post by bubu dubu. »

12 for B or better
11 for C or worse

Pretty polarizing off-season

I could easily name one of the 2 A's, and one of the 2 F's.
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Re: Grade Gersson Rosas' First Off-Season with Timberwolves

Post by bubu dubu. »

sh1mmyya wrote: Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:31 pm You plan on getting that published, mlhouse?
:lol:
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Re: Grade Gersson Rosas' First Off-Season with Timberwolves

Post by jodaman01 »

It’s a D for me right now. He really hasn’t done shit player wise except for throwing some shit at the wall and hoping some it sticks.

He’s lost more talent than he’s brought in this offseason.

Come regular season it would be good to re-grade this, he’s left himself a low bar to clear for improvement.
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Re: Grade Gersson Rosas' First Off-Season with Timberwolves

Post by Jgrimmz »

mlhouse wrote: Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:28 pm WHile some people claim you need time to evaluate, his first off-season (to date) can be evaluated from simple, but substantial way.

Did Rosas use the 2019 offseason to improve this team for the future?

And, I would claim that the answer is a resounding no. Lets look at the moves.

1. The obvious biggest move of the offseason, like usual, was our lottery pick in the NBA draft. Rosas traded our #11 pick plus Dario Saric to obtain the #6 pick. With the 6th pick he selected Jarrett Culver. This move has been hashed over a lot, but in general, I believe Culver was a very overrated player and Saric a very underrated player. If the reason to trade Saric was because we did not want to extend him to a significant contract, this underscores his value.

2. Signing Jordan Bell to a one year minimum contract.

3. Signing Vonleh to a one year, $2 million contract.

4. Obtaining Shabazz Napier and Taveon Graham as a 3rd party facilitator to the Durant sign and trade.

5. Using the Saric TPE to make a sign and trade deal with Portland for Jake Layman.

Did any of these moves improve the team for the future?

First, signing a player to a one year contract or acquiring a player with one year left on the contract is an almost impossible way of building for the future. These players only have non-Bird rights meaning that a team can only resign the player for up to 120% of their previous salary. To sign the player to anything above that total requires either cap room or an exception. The players the Wolves signed are all on virtual minimum contracts so if any of them have a good year the Wolves are really handcuffed in being able to retain those players going forward.

Second, I like the Layman signing. I think the contract was reasonable. Using the TPE in the sign and trade allowed the Wolves retain their other exceptions in case any other moves was possible. Layman has some reasonable upside and athletic ability and is the type of player who could develop given a solid level of rotation time. In some ways, Layman is almost equivalent to drafting an older college player in the mid-first rounds. While it is nice to see a creative usage of the TPE (a rarity in Wolves land) and the signing is a reasonable one, it is a very minor addition and nothing unique, and could have occured independent of the Culver trade.

Third, I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I really do not see the point in helping the Warriors facilitate a sign and trade acquiring Russell. That seems like borrowing your car to the guy who is going out on a date with your hot ex-girlfriend and knowing he is going to bang her in your backseat. In the end, this was a financial move by Glen Taylor. The cash from Golden St. in this transaction essentially creates two "free" roster spots for the season occupied by two players on minimal one year deals. This does nothing to move the franchise forward except save Taylor money and hte two roster spots could be used in more valuable ways.

Fourth, the Wolves did not add any future assets in any moves. Our future draft asset cupboard remains as bare as it was before the offseason began. Since Taylor focused on the financial aspects of the 3-way trade with Golden St and Brooklyn, we did not even get a 2nd round pick for the efforts.

Fifth, Jarrett Culver is truly the critical issue in the offseason and Culver's value must be greater that Dario Saric and whatever player we would have drafted with our original pick. I think this is a tall order. I think Culver will be a good player in the NBA but I think his offensive upside is Saric (positinally adjusted) at best. He had more of a defensive profile, but I think his defense is very overrated because he played in the TT defensive systems. Against top level competiiton, Culver struggled and he particularly struggled in the NCAA tournament. THe other question to understand his upside is fit. Where/how is Culver going to play given the other wing players the team has.

Lastly, while the NBA is become more of a positionless league, you can still look at the different position groups to try to evaluate how this team is going forward. And that analysis is pretty dismal. Right now, since Rosas went with Culver in the draft and chose not to match Ty Jones, there is not a PG type player on the roster that will be on the team next season. Sure, PG can be addressed into the future, when the entire depth of the position must be addressed in a year that can cause a lot of problems and can make it a disaster if you make a mistake.

Likewise, the PF position group now consists of a Robert Covington stop gap, Dieng, and two guys on min contract one year deals. Moving Covington to PF, which seems to be the plan, means you are weakening the defense at a critical perimeter position (the Wolves weakness) and moving a player that is a high level defender to a postion they project to be less of a defensive value. And the position looks suspect given they have no guaranteed young player to back that up.

It is unlikely that this 36 win team got any better. It can be argued it got a lot worse, at least for the beginning of the season before any of the young guys can develop into their rotation spots. Having two critical position groups that need to be addressed is a significant handicap given that the team will not have salary cap flexibility again next season, did not obtain any future draft assets, nor have a lot of players with significant trade value.

Not drafting a PG with the 6th pick was a major error given the way the rest of the offseason played out. This cannot be excused and there is nothing that Rosas did that can come even close to overcoming it. If he drafts a PG type player like Coby White then in the following lottery he could have addressed the remaining hole in the rotation. What this likely means is that what could have potentially been a fast rebuild, the rebuild will take much longer than it should and we are going to have to rely on Wiggins and Towns improving in the new offense that Coach Saunders is implementing.
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Re: Grade Gersson Rosas' First Off-Season with Timberwolves

Post by sh1mmyya »

mlhouse wrote: Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:49 pm
sh1mmyya wrote: Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:31 pm You plan on getting that published, mlhouse?
Sorry, I forget sometimes that you and most of the other Froobs have an IQ of almost 45.
Ya, that, and I don't have a spare 45 minutes to read a single post.
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Re: Grade Gersson Rosas' First Off-Season with Timberwolves

Post by mlhouse »

sh1mmyya wrote: Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:11 am
mlhouse wrote: Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:49 pm
sh1mmyya wrote: Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:31 pm You plan on getting that published, mlhouse?
Sorry, I forget sometimes that you and most of the other Froobs have an IQ of almost 45.
Ya, that, and I don't have a spare 45 minutes to read a single post.
That is a very fast reading time for someone with a 45 IQ. Congratulations.
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Re: Grade Gersson Rosas' First Off-Season with Timberwolves

Post by j2j »

So mlhouse is super mad we didn't draft Coby White. That's a lot of words to just say that.
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Re: Grade Gersson Rosas' First Off-Season with Timberwolves

Post by sh1mmyya »

mlhouse wrote: Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:04 am
sh1mmyya wrote: Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:11 am

Ya, that, and I don't have a spare 45 minutes to read a single post.
That is a very fast reading time for someone with a 45 IQ. Congratulations.
Thanks friend!
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Re: Grade Gersson Rosas' First Off-Season with Timberwolves

Post by Moses Scurry »

I'll rate it once it's fricken over. And that includes a whole nba season as I still think you can make trades during the season, dunno, probably need to look.
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Re: Grade Gersson Rosas' First Off-Season with Timberwolves

Post by thinktank »

This process is not an easy one to appreciate:

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Re: Grade Gersson Rosas' First Off-Season with Timberwolves

Post by qrocks »

D, so far

- He hired a HC that no other NBA or Euro team would hire (for HC).
- No starting PG, yet
- No starting PF, yet
- Alienated highest paid player
- Traded away a starting PF hoping for a specific player to drop to 1.06

Not a good start by any means...
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Re: Grade Gersson Rosas' First Off-Season with Timberwolves

Post by j2j »

If one is obsessed with giving a grade at this point you have to define the terms of that grade. Would New Orleans get an A if they'd only made the no brainer pick of Zion? Would the Rockets get an F after the draft simply because they didnt have a pick?

I'm sticking with incomplete, but I think there are things to like so far.

- Change in offensive and defensive philosophy, hopefully a more exciting style to watch
- Restructuring of the coaching staff and expansion of player development
- Moving on from marginal players instead of handing out big/long extensions. (Phrasing)
- Finding short term bargains to fill roster spots
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Re: Grade Gersson Rosas' First Off-Season with Timberwolves

Post by KevinBaconIsNotMyHero »

qrocks wrote: Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:00 pm D, so far

- He hired a HC that no other NBA or Euro team would hire (for HC).
- No starting PG, yet
- No starting PF, yet
- Alienated highest paid player
- Traded away a starting PF hoping for a specific player to drop to 1.06

Not a good start by any means...
What proof do you have that Wiggins is “alienated?” He was sitting with Rosas at summer league laughing and looking jovial. And if he was mad....who gives a shit? He’s not good enough to really care.
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Re: Grade Gersson Rosas' First Off-Season with Timberwolves

Post by Style »

I wish he would’ve parted with RoCo to get up to #4 for Garland, but all in all I think he’s done a nice job. I still really like the Saric/11 for 6 deal.

The rest is just role players out, role players in.

Small moves this offseason for bigger moves in other offseasons.

B+
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Re: Grade Gersson Rosas' First Off-Season with Timberwolves

Post by jodaman01 »

thinktank wrote: Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:57 am This process is not an easy one to appreciate:

Rosas Mr Big Talk.

He gets his one new GM tank season. 2nd season he makes his moves to build and we see if it starts to come together.

3rd year determines his livelihood.

KAT only stays on board for so long, same with Taylor and empty seats.
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Re: Grade Gersson Rosas' First Off-Season with Timberwolves

Post by morneaumvp »

qrocks wrote: Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:00 pm D, so far

- He hired a HC that no other NBA or Euro team would hire (for HC).
- No starting PG, yet
- No starting PF, yet
- Alienated highest paid player
- Traded away a starting PF hoping for a specific player to drop to 1.06

Not a good start by any means...
Alienated Wiggins how?
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Re: Grade Gersson Rosas' First Off-Season with Timberwolves

Post by RubeTube »

qrocks wrote: Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:00 pm D, so far

- He hired a HC that no other NBA or Euro team would hire (for HC).
- No starting PG, yet
- No starting PF, yet
- Alienated highest paid player
- Traded away a starting PF hoping for a specific player to drop to 1.06

Not a good start by any means...
Did he hire the Saunders boy though? That immediately gives another mark down for me.

I think that was more on Glen. He's still paying Thibs so we are rolling on the cheap.
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Re: Grade Gersson Rosas' First Off-Season with Timberwolves

Post by j2j »

qrocks wrote: Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:00 pm D, so far

- He hired a HC that no other NBA or Euro team would hire (for HC).
- No starting PG, yet
- No starting PF, yet
- Alienated highest paid player
- Traded away a starting PF hoping for a specific player to drop to 1.06

Not a good start by any means...
Sergeant Rubetube wrote: Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:34 pm Did he hire the Saunders boy though? That immediately gives another mark down for me.

I think that was more on Glen. He's still paying Thibs so we are rolling on the cheap.
Who should he have hired?
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Re: Grade Gersson Rosas' First Off-Season with Timberwolves

Post by RubeTube »

j2j wrote: Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:14 pm
qrocks wrote: Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:00 pm D, so far

- He hired a HC that no other NBA or Euro team would hire (for HC).
- No starting PG, yet
- No starting PF, yet
- Alienated highest paid player
- Traded away a starting PF hoping for a specific player to drop to 1.06

Not a good start by any means...
Sergeant Rubetube wrote: Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:34 pm Did he hire the Saunders boy though? That immediately gives another mark down for me.

I think that was more on Glen. He's still paying Thibs so we are rolling on the cheap.
Who should he have hired?
Brah, you're kidding right? This was the year of HCs.

Monty Williams
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Would of been great hires. The Saunders boy is to the Wolves to what Leslie Frazier was to the Vikings.

Cheap HC with a team rebuilding. 2-3 year's from now, Rye guy will be a assistant on someone's bench after a horrible run here.

The only guy worse we could of picked was Luke the Puke. All women within the organization are safe now. :thumbsup:

Saunders was as lame duck of a hire as you could make. It was predictable though. Papa Glen is still feeding Thibs and it makes for a "Cute" story. People here love that shit.
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Re: Grade Gersson Rosas' First Off-Season with Timberwolves

Post by j2j »

Sergeant Rubetube wrote: Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:19 pm
j2j wrote: Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:14 pm
qrocks wrote: Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:00 pm D, so far

- He hired a HC that no other NBA or Euro team would hire (for HC).
- No starting PG, yet
- No starting PF, yet
- Alienated highest paid player
- Traded away a starting PF hoping for a specific player to drop to 1.06

Not a good start by any means...
Sergeant Rubetube wrote: Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:34 pm Did he hire the Saunders boy though? That immediately gives another mark down for me.

I think that was more on Glen. He's still paying Thibs so we are rolling on the cheap.
Who should he have hired?
Brah, you're kidding right? This was the year of HCs.

Monty Williams
Joerger

Would of been great hires. The Saunders boy is to the Wolves to what Leslie Frazier was to the Vikings.

Cheap HC with a team rebuilding. 2-3 year's from now, Rye guy will be a assistant on someone's bench after a horrible run here.

The only guy worse we could of picked was Luke the Puke. All women within the organization are safe now. :thumbsup:

Saunders was as lame duck of a hire as you could make. It was predictable though. Papa Glen is still feeding Thibs and it makes for a "Cute" story. People here love that shit.
Just asked an honest question to get an honest take, didn't mean to trigger you.

My top choice was Monty Williams, but I don't think he was ever an option for us. Unfortunately we can't just force him to want to be here. Beyond that the options were shit and I didn't want another shitty retread.
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Re: Grade Gersson Rosas' First Off-Season with Timberwolves

Post by RubeTube »

j2j wrote: Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:59 pm
Sergeant Rubetube wrote: Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:19 pm
j2j wrote: Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:14 pm



Who should he have hired?
Brah, you're kidding right? This was the year of HCs.

Monty Williams
Joerger

Would of been great hires. The Saunders boy is to the Wolves to what Leslie Frazier was to the Vikings.

Cheap HC with a team rebuilding. 2-3 year's from now, Rye guy will be a assistant on someone's bench after a horrible run here.

The only guy worse we could of picked was Luke the Puke. All women within the organization are safe now. :thumbsup:

Saunders was as lame duck of a hire as you could make. It was predictable though. Papa Glen is still feeding Thibs and it makes for a "Cute" story. People here love that shit.
Just asked an honest question to get an honest take, didn't mean to trigger you.

My top choice was Monty Williams, but I don't think he was ever an option for us. Unfortunately we can't just force him to want to be here. Beyond that the options were shit and I didn't want another shitty retread.
I wouldn't mind Saunders if he was just starting out this year. Thing is, we saw him a good amount last year and it was underwhelming imo.

What's going to change this year?
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Re: Grade Gersson Rosas' First Off-Season with Timberwolves

Post by j2j »

Sergeant Rubetube wrote: Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:02 pm
j2j wrote: Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:59 pm
Sergeant Rubetube wrote: Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:19 pm

Brah, you're kidding right? This was the year of HCs.

Monty Williams
Joerger

Would of been great hires. The Saunders boy is to the Wolves to what Leslie Frazier was to the Vikings.

Cheap HC with a team rebuilding. 2-3 year's from now, Rye guy will be a assistant on someone's bench after a horrible run here.

The only guy worse we could of picked was Luke the Puke. All women within the organization are safe now. :thumbsup:

Saunders was as lame duck of a hire as you could make. It was predictable though. Papa Glen is still feeding Thibs and it makes for a "Cute" story. People here love that shit.
Just asked an honest question to get an honest take, didn't mean to trigger you.

My top choice was Monty Williams, but I don't think he was ever an option for us. Unfortunately we can't just force him to want to be here. Beyond that the options were shit and I didn't want another shitty retread.
I wouldn't mind Saunders if he was just starting out this year. Thing is, we saw him a good amount last year and it was underwhelming imo.

What's going to change this year?
Can't expect him to change anything midseason. He's covered that.
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