Would you....

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mlhouse
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Would you....

Post by mlhouse » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:03 pm

Lets say that the Wolves use the stretch provision and waive Jeff Teague.

Then go to the Lakers and say we will take both Moritz Wagner and Isaac Bonga plus two future 2nds and take their contracts off your hands?

Would you do it?

I probably would.

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Sid Hartman
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Re: Would you....

Post by Sid Hartman » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:05 pm

Hell no...I want all of Teague’s cap hit off the books either by trade or expire after this year...no reason to kick the can down curb and pay $ for a few more years. We are still paying Aldrich for god sake against our cap
Andrew Wiggins fucking sucks...if you defend this clown you don’t know shit about basketball

mlhouse
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Re: Would you....

Post by mlhouse » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:14 pm

Sid Hartman wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:05 pm
Hell no...I want all of Teague’s cap hit off the books either by trade or expire after this year...no reason to kick the can down curb and pay $ for a few more years. We are still paying Aldrich for god sake against our cap
Because why? All of the valuable free agents that will come flocking in here? Even getting Teagues $19 million off the cap in 2020-21, we hardly have any real cap space left (we probably would be a few million below the cap or so depending on moves made this offseason). We have basically the same free agent options regardless, will be no where near the lux tax, and Glen has to pay out the money right away anyways.

In this scenario we get two young players to try to work into rotational roles on minimal contracts that can be dumped and the start of a collection of future assets.

With your approach we get nothing.

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KevinBaconIsNotMyHero
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Re: Would you....

Post by KevinBaconIsNotMyHero » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:14 pm

Why are we stretching Teague’s contract? No.

mlhouse
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Re: Would you....

Post by mlhouse » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:17 pm

KevinBaconIsNotMyHero wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:14 pm
Why are we stretching Teague’s contract? No.
To create room to acquire young players and draft assets. Why would we not waive Jeff and stretch his contract?

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Re: Would you....

Post by thinktank » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:19 pm

OMG no
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mlhouse
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Re: Would you....

Post by mlhouse » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:31 pm

Asshole wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:19 pm
OMG no
because Jeff Teague is going to lead us to the promised land and then get the hell out of here?

What if a team offered us two young players and 2 draft picks for Jeff Teague? Would you turn that down?

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KevinBaconIsNotMyHero
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Re: Would you....

Post by KevinBaconIsNotMyHero » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:45 pm

mlhouse wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:17 pm
KevinBaconIsNotMyHero wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:14 pm
Why are we stretching Teague’s contract? No.
To create room to acquire young players and draft assets. Why would we not waive Jeff and stretch his contract?
Because he has one year left and as of now he’s the only PG on our roster who’s not a FA? You want to stretch 19 million over multiple years in order to get Moritz Wagner and a 2nd round pick from LA? I’m not in.

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Re: Would you....

Post by RubeTube » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:46 pm

Da Fuq?!?
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mlhouse
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Re: Would you....

Post by mlhouse » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:57 pm

KevinBaconIsNotMyHero wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:45 pm
mlhouse wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:17 pm
KevinBaconIsNotMyHero wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:14 pm
Why are we stretching Teague’s contract? No.
To create room to acquire young players and draft assets. Why would we not waive Jeff and stretch his contract?
Because he has one year left and as of now he’s the only PG on our roster who’s not a FA? You want to stretch 19 million over multiple years in order to get Moritz Wagner and a 2nd round pick from LA? I’m not in.
Again, versus?

What difference does it make what PG is on our roster? Any incremental wins that Jeff Teague gives us are meanignless. Maybe they move us from the 12th seed in the West to the 11th or 10th!!!!! All for what? He isn't coming back to Minnesota and I doubt anyone wants him back.

Instead, waive him and stretch his 2019-20 salary. This gives us room to manuever a bit.

DO you think the trade value for Teague is greater than Wagner, Bonga and 2 2nd round picks? Especially if you do not have to pick up another contract on the way back?

I make the deal. I resign Ty Jones. He will be the starter for 2019-20. Or just find some other similar player.

I use Bonga as my backup. Bonga is 20 years old, playing on a $1.6 million contract for 2019-20 with $1.416 million 2020-21 contract that is not guaranteed. If Bonga plays well we have a good young player for 2020-21 on a cheap deal. If not, you cut him at some point during or after the season.

I don't know if Moritz Wagner has a NBA future, but you simply find out. He started 5 games last season. One a 22 point performance against Boston . In games he played more than 20 minutes (6 games) he averaged 12.7 points per game. I think that is a guy who you hope improves his distance shooting and maybe a player you can play 15 minutes a night as a rotational big man. You control him on his rookie deal so you we would have options.

I do this deal everyday of the week.

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KevinBaconIsNotMyHero
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Re: Would you....

Post by KevinBaconIsNotMyHero » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:02 pm

mlhouse wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:57 pm
KevinBaconIsNotMyHero wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:45 pm
mlhouse wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:17 pm


To create room to acquire young players and draft assets. Why would we not waive Jeff and stretch his contract?
Because he has one year left and as of now he’s the only PG on our roster who’s not a FA? You want to stretch 19 million over multiple years in order to get Moritz Wagner and a 2nd round pick from LA? I’m not in.
Again, versus?

What difference does it make what PG is on our roster? Any incremental wins that Jeff Teague gives us are meanignless. Maybe they move us from the 12th seed in the West to the 11th or 10th!!!!! All for what? He isn't coming back to Minnesota and I doubt anyone wants him back.

Instead, waive him and stretch his 2019-20 salary. This gives us room to manuever a bit.

DO you think the trade value for Teague is greater than Wagner, Bonga and 2 2nd round picks? Especially if you do not have to pick up another contract on the way back?

I make the deal. I resign Ty Jones. He will be the starter for 2019-20. Or just find some other similar player.

I use Bonga as my backup. Bonga is 20 years old, playing on a $1.6 million contract for 2019-20 with $1.416 million 2020-21 contract that is not guaranteed. If Bonga plays well we have a good young player for 2020-21 on a cheap deal. If not, you cut him at some point during or after the season.

I don't know if Moritz Wagner has a NBA future, but you simply find out. He started 5 games last season. One a 22 point performance against Boston . In games he played more than 20 minutes (6 games) he averaged 12.7 points per game. I think that is a guy who you hope improves his distance shooting and maybe a player you can play 15 minutes a night as a rotational big man. You control him on his rookie deal so you we would have options.

I do this deal everyday of the week.
That’s fine. I wouldn’t. Appreciate the ideas though.

mlhouse
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Re: Would you....

Post by mlhouse » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:02 pm

KevinBaconIsNotMyHero wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:02 pm
mlhouse wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:57 pm
KevinBaconIsNotMyHero wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:45 pm


Because he has one year left and as of now he’s the only PG on our roster who’s not a FA? You want to stretch 19 million over multiple years in order to get Moritz Wagner and a 2nd round pick from LA? I’m not in.
Again, versus?

What difference does it make what PG is on our roster? Any incremental wins that Jeff Teague gives us are meanignless. Maybe they move us from the 12th seed in the West to the 11th or 10th!!!!! All for what? He isn't coming back to Minnesota and I doubt anyone wants him back.

Instead, waive him and stretch his 2019-20 salary. This gives us room to manuever a bit.

DO you think the trade value for Teague is greater than Wagner, Bonga and 2 2nd round picks? Especially if you do not have to pick up another contract on the way back?

I make the deal. I resign Ty Jones. He will be the starter for 2019-20. Or just find some other similar player.

I use Bonga as my backup. Bonga is 20 years old, playing on a $1.6 million contract for 2019-20 with $1.416 million 2020-21 contract that is not guaranteed. If Bonga plays well we have a good young player for 2020-21 on a cheap deal. If not, you cut him at some point during or after the season.

I don't know if Moritz Wagner has a NBA future, but you simply find out. He started 5 games last season. One a 22 point performance against Boston . In games he played more than 20 minutes (6 games) he averaged 12.7 points per game. I think that is a guy who you hope improves his distance shooting and maybe a player you can play 15 minutes a night as a rotational big man. You control him on his rookie deal so you we would have options.

I do this deal everyday of the week.
That’s fine. I wouldn’t. Appreciate the ideas though.
What do you think you can realistically get back in a trade for Jeff Teague?

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LordNu
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Re: Would you....

Post by LordNu » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:05 pm

mlhouse wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:03 pm
Lets say that the Wolves use the stretch provision and waive Jeff Teague.

Then go to the Lakers and say we will take both Moritz Wagner and Isaac Bonga plus two future 2nds and take their contracts off your hands?

Would you do it?

I probably would.
Could you explain this stretch provision?

Is it what we used on Kevin Martin?

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KevinBaconIsNotMyHero
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Re: Would you....

Post by KevinBaconIsNotMyHero » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:12 pm

mlhouse wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:02 pm
KevinBaconIsNotMyHero wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:02 pm
mlhouse wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:57 pm


Again, versus?

What difference does it make what PG is on our roster? Any incremental wins that Jeff Teague gives us are meanignless. Maybe they move us from the 12th seed in the West to the 11th or 10th!!!!! All for what? He isn't coming back to Minnesota and I doubt anyone wants him back.

Instead, waive him and stretch his 2019-20 salary. This gives us room to manuever a bit.

DO you think the trade value for Teague is greater than Wagner, Bonga and 2 2nd round picks? Especially if you do not have to pick up another contract on the way back?

I make the deal. I resign Ty Jones. He will be the starter for 2019-20. Or just find some other similar player.

I use Bonga as my backup. Bonga is 20 years old, playing on a $1.6 million contract for 2019-20 with $1.416 million 2020-21 contract that is not guaranteed. If Bonga plays well we have a good young player for 2020-21 on a cheap deal. If not, you cut him at some point during or after the season.

I don't know if Moritz Wagner has a NBA future, but you simply find out. He started 5 games last season. One a 22 point performance against Boston . In games he played more than 20 minutes (6 games) he averaged 12.7 points per game. I think that is a guy who you hope improves his distance shooting and maybe a player you can play 15 minutes a night as a rotational big man. You control him on his rookie deal so you we would have options.

I do this deal everyday of the week.
That’s fine. I wouldn’t. Appreciate the ideas though.
What do you think you can realistically get back in a trade for Jeff Teague?
Not much of anything. He’s probably negative value, even on an expiring. But I don’t want to stretch his money over multiple years. This isn’t Aldrich’s 6.5 million being stretched, it’s 19 million.

mlhouse
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Re: Would you....

Post by mlhouse » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:12 pm

LordNu wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:05 pm
mlhouse wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:03 pm
Lets say that the Wolves use the stretch provision and waive Jeff Teague.

Then go to the Lakers and say we will take both Moritz Wagner and Isaac Bonga plus two future 2nds and take their contracts off your hands?

Would you do it?

I probably would.
Could you explain this stretch provision?

Is it what we used on Kevin Martin?
If you waive a player, his salary cap number is spread over 2 times the length of the contract, plus one. So, Teague's $19 million can be stretched over 3 years against the cap. You carry some "dead money" but it immediately reduces your salary cap number.

I would not do it if we could create space to sign free agents and actually had some options there. But spreading his contract doesn't really impact any of that and we still retain the MLE and BE.

If there was some sort of deal on the table like the one I propose (this is something the Lakers might want to do to create the last ounce of room to get to the $30 million level they need for Kemba Walker) I would do it as the best value I can get for Teague. Maybe teams that have cap space like the Kings would do it for nothing but I woudl want the draft assets too.

mlhouse
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Re: Would you....

Post by mlhouse » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:15 pm

KevinBaconIsNotMyHero wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:12 pm
mlhouse wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:02 pm
KevinBaconIsNotMyHero wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:02 pm

That’s fine. I wouldn’t. Appreciate the ideas though.
What do you think you can realistically get back in a trade for Jeff Teague?
Not much of anything. He’s probably negative value, even on an expiring. But I don’t want to stretch his money over multiple years. This isn’t Aldrich’s 6.5 million being stretched, it’s 19 million.
What options do you think they have with the cap that stretching some dead space impacts? We really don't have cap room until Dieng's contract comes off the books in 2021-22 and we really don't have a lot of options to spend the money on. Salary cap space isn't that valuable to the Wolves.

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Re: Would you....

Post by KevinBaconIsNotMyHero » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:20 pm

mlhouse wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:15 pm
KevinBaconIsNotMyHero wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:12 pm
mlhouse wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:02 pm


What do you think you can realistically get back in a trade for Jeff Teague?
Not much of anything. He’s probably negative value, even on an expiring. But I don’t want to stretch his money over multiple years. This isn’t Aldrich’s 6.5 million being stretched, it’s 19 million.
What options do you think they have with the cap that stretching some dead space impacts? We really don't have cap room until Dieng's contract comes off the books in 2021-22 and we really don't have a lot of options to spend the money on. Salary cap space isn't that valuable to the Wolves.
Dieng’s contract is done in two years, the stretch would go well past that. And I’m not in the boat that the Wolves have no chance to bring in FA’s. If KAT becomes a top 10 player in his prime in a couple of years, guys may want to play with him. Dead money for Jeff Teague is not optimal for me, when his contract expires in a year. You want flexibility for the team this offseason, I want it for the ensuing offseasons. I get your point, respect it, appreciate the idea and thought, and disagree.

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LordNu
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Re: Would you....

Post by LordNu » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:20 pm

mlhouse wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:12 pm
LordNu wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:05 pm
mlhouse wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:03 pm
Lets say that the Wolves use the stretch provision and waive Jeff Teague.

Then go to the Lakers and say we will take both Moritz Wagner and Isaac Bonga plus two future 2nds and take their contracts off your hands?

Would you do it?

I probably would.
Could you explain this stretch provision?

Is it what we used on Kevin Martin?
If you waive a player, his salary cap number is spread over 2 times the length of the contract, plus one. So, Teague's $19 million can be stretched over 3 years against the cap. You carry some "dead money" but it immediately reduces your salary cap number.

I would not do it if we could create space to sign free agents and actually had some options there. But spreading his contract doesn't really impact any of that and we still retain the MLE and BE.

If there was some sort of deal on the table like the one I propose (this is something the Lakers might want to do to create the last ounce of room to get to the $30 million level they need for Kemba Walker) I would do it as the best value I can get for Teague. Maybe teams that have cap space like the Kings would do it for nothing but I woudl want the draft assets too.
Can this only be done for one player at a time or even have only one stretched contract in counted at a time? I am curious as I haven't seen it before and with Kevin Martin, I thought he agreed to a buy-out, rather than being waived.

mlhouse
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Re: Would you....

Post by mlhouse » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:21 pm

LordNu wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:20 pm
mlhouse wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:12 pm
LordNu wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:05 pm


Could you explain this stretch provision?

Is it what we used on Kevin Martin?
If you waive a player, his salary cap number is spread over 2 times the length of the contract, plus one. So, Teague's $19 million can be stretched over 3 years against the cap. You carry some "dead money" but it immediately reduces your salary cap number.

I would not do it if we could create space to sign free agents and actually had some options there. But spreading his contract doesn't really impact any of that and we still retain the MLE and BE.

If there was some sort of deal on the table like the one I propose (this is something the Lakers might want to do to create the last ounce of room to get to the $30 million level they need for Kemba Walker) I would do it as the best value I can get for Teague. Maybe teams that have cap space like the Kings would do it for nothing but I woudl want the draft assets too.
Can this only be done for one player at a time or even have only one stretched contract in counted at a time? I am curious as I haven't seen it before and with Kevin Martin, I thought he agreed to a buy-out, rather than being waived.
You can stretch any player you waive. You still have to pay them.

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Re: Would you....

Post by mlhouse » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:24 pm

KevinBaconIsNotMyHero wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:20 pm
mlhouse wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:15 pm
KevinBaconIsNotMyHero wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:12 pm

Not much of anything. He’s probably negative value, even on an expiring. But I don’t want to stretch his money over multiple years. This isn’t Aldrich’s 6.5 million being stretched, it’s 19 million.
What options do you think they have with the cap that stretching some dead space impacts? We really don't have cap room until Dieng's contract comes off the books in 2021-22 and we really don't have a lot of options to spend the money on. Salary cap space isn't that valuable to the Wolves.
Dieng’s contract is done in two years, the stretch would go well past that. And I’m not in the boat that the Wolves have no chance to bring in FA’s. If KAT becomes a top 10 player in his prime in a couple of years, guys may want to play with him. Dead money for Jeff Teague is not optimal for me, when his contract expires in a year. You want flexibility for the team this offseason, I want it for the ensuing offseasons. I get your point, respect it, appreciate the idea and thought, and disagree.
I guess I am on the opposite boat. Depending on what happens in interim, Dieng's deal gives us more than enough free agent money to do whatever is possible and the Wolves competing in that market just creates overpriced deals.

I prefer that the Wolves stay low, use the MLE wisely, and develop whatever prospects they can.

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LordNu
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Re: Would you....

Post by LordNu » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:34 pm

mlhouse wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:21 pm
LordNu wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:20 pm
mlhouse wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:12 pm


If you waive a player, his salary cap number is spread over 2 times the length of the contract, plus one. So, Teague's $19 million can be stretched over 3 years against the cap. You carry some "dead money" but it immediately reduces your salary cap number.

I would not do it if we could create space to sign free agents and actually had some options there. But spreading his contract doesn't really impact any of that and we still retain the MLE and BE.

If there was some sort of deal on the table like the one I propose (this is something the Lakers might want to do to create the last ounce of room to get to the $30 million level they need for Kemba Walker) I would do it as the best value I can get for Teague. Maybe teams that have cap space like the Kings would do it for nothing but I woudl want the draft assets too.
Can this only be done for one player at a time or even have only one stretched contract in counted at a time? I am curious as I haven't seen it before and with Kevin Martin, I thought he agreed to a buy-out, rather than being waived.
You can stretch any player you waive. You still have to pay them.
Ah, I thought that maybe the league views waiving and buy-outs as different as teams pick up some of the original contract if they decide to sign a waived or bought-out player. Or am I making that up?

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Re: Would you....

Post by thinktank » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:06 am

Just be done with him this year. No reason to have him eat cap for years.
HeHateMe wrote:
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Re: Would you....

Post by KATMANDUDE » Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:21 am

This would be a complete misuse of the Stretch Provision.

I would only use it as a very last resort in the case of already having a FA deal where a really really need to squeeze out a few extra dollars to complete it.

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Re: Would you....

Post by OliverMiller » Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:26 am

Bad idea. It wouldn't shock me if Teague was moved for a heavily protected second.

Even if you don't use cap space to sign a player you can use it to acquire players in trades.

Bad idea.

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Re: Would you....

Post by Ash Ketchum » Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:13 am

No I would not.

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Re: Would you....

Post by digitalwolf » Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:32 am

No.....the pieces you named I have no interest in and Teague is in his last year to possibly earn any future money for the rest of his career. He has value as an expiring.....but he has the most incentive to play the best ball he's ever played. I would rather gamble on him driving up his value and hoping for a team needing a patchwork piece if a starter goes down. Even if his value stayed the same, the deal you mention at the deadline would still easily be sitting there. Even if we're drafting a PG, we're still in limbo going forward with the question of if we're committed to keeping Tyus, Teague being in his last year, and Rose def not returning.

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Re: Would you....

Post by HeHateMe » Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:41 am

Unless they're dumping Wiggins and/or Dieng without getting any salary back, no. We need that off the books at the end of the year.
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Style
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Re: Would you....

Post by Style » Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:46 am

Asshole wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:06 am
Just be done with him this year. No reason to have him eat cap for years.
This is where I'm at. Let him play it out and start fresh next year. The stretch provision in general seems like a poor idea. No need to kick the can down the road.

Ask LeBron how it's going right now for the Lakers and Luol Deng.

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Re: Would you....

Post by mlhouse » Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:51 am

Style wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:46 am
Asshole wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:06 am
Just be done with him this year. No reason to have him eat cap for years.
This is where I'm at. Let him play it out and start fresh next year. The stretch provision in general seems like a poor idea. No need to kick the can down the road.

Ask LeBron how it's going right now for the Lakers and Luol Deng.
You think that the Lakers would rather have his 2019-20 $15 million salaries on the cap right now rather than $5 million they have because they stretched the last year of his contract? Right? You realize $5 million is better than $15 million for salary cap room?

The other difference is that the Lakers have the opportunity to use that room to much higher value than the Wolves.

I find these ideas that we will trade Jeff Teague as "an expiring", like that has some value. The only way expiring contracts have any value is if you are willing to take back longer term salary.

And, the fact is, Teague trade value is less than Wagner, Bonga, and 2 2nd round draft picks. THis deal doesn't trade Teague, it trades cap space. That is much more valuable than Jeff Teague on the market.

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Style
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Re: Would you....

Post by Style » Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:31 pm

mlhouse wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:51 am
Style wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:46 am
Asshole wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:06 am
Just be done with him this year. No reason to have him eat cap for years.
This is where I'm at. Let him play it out and start fresh next year. The stretch provision in general seems like a poor idea. No need to kick the can down the road.

Ask LeBron how it's going right now for the Lakers and Luol Deng.
You think that the Lakers would rather have his 2019-20 $15 million salaries on the cap right now rather than $5 million they have because they stretched the last year of his contract? Right? You realize $5 million is better than $15 million for salary cap room?

The other difference is that the Lakers have the opportunity to use that room to much higher value than the Wolves.

I find these ideas that we will trade Jeff Teague as "an expiring", like that has some value. The only way expiring contracts have any value is if you are willing to take back longer term salary.

And, the fact is, Teague trade value is less than Wagner, Bonga, and 2 2nd round draft picks. THis deal doesn't trade Teague, it trades cap space. That is much more valuable than Jeff Teague on the market.
Ah, I'm wrong. I thought he would've expired after last year for some reason. Stretching actually did work out for the Lake Show.

I'm still not wanting to stretch Teague in our current situation. Different/unique idea though.

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