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Yo, is Derrick Rose good again?

A place to discuss the MN Timberwolves
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DC4MVP
Posts: 7297
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:03 am

Re: Yo, is Derrick Rose good again?

Post by DC4MVP »

I give it another 15-20 games.

Once those bum knees start hurting, he done.
mlhouse
Posts: 24752
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:00 pm

Re: Yo, is Derrick Rose good again?

Post by mlhouse »

salamander wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:41 am
Sally wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:33 am
mlhouse wrote: Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:27 pm

The problem with these types of cases is that the concept of consent is such a hazy one and that our more feminist culture has created such ideas that consent can be taken away after the fact.

The process of sexual interaction in our civilization can almost be described as one of stepwise experimentation were there isn't any defined rules. When you take a girl (or whatever gender of your preference) to the movies you might put your arm around her seat. ANd if she does not shove it away, maybe you bring that arm closer to her. The girl isn't going to say "You can do X" tonight" explicitly. Both partners "grope" (pun intended) to find out what is going to be allowed and the partners move to a level until there is a definite break, including a definitive NO. The "bases" is one of the best metaphors around, and even a "No" in most developing sexual relationships does not mean the end of the baseball game, just that you are leading off the base until the next pitch.

The other issue that I think is really important is impaired consent and is very relevant in the Derrick Rose case as well as many other cases. This woman, from all accounts, had a BAC 2.5 times the "limit". But the limit is based on driving a motor vehicle not other human activities, and drunk driving laws are not really designed to protect the private person, but to protect the public. Drinking lowers a person's inhibitions, and this woman was drunk.

Based on what I read, and this case has significant pieces of the transcripts and depostions available, Derrick Rose did not behave in a gentlemanly way. But, on the other hand, I also believe that even though he could never define consent in a million years, he believed that the woman gave consent for the sexual activity, and in the end, that should be the standard in these cases.

In my opinion, just because a person was drunk does not mean that their indications of consent are not valid. A gentleman may pass on sex with an obviously inebriated woman, but if the inebriated woman indicates consent through her words, actions, or even lack of an explicit non-consent signal, it is not rape no matter how much the person regrets their consent the next morning. If you do not want to be in situations were your lack of inhibition causes you to do actions you do not like, don't put yourself in such positions.
I think this is really well put.

Congrats on not making me want to vomit as I thought I might when I saw a post this long about this topic :thumbsup:
He raises some very good points.
And again, just to be clear, I do not agree with Derrick Rose's conduct. It is reprehensible. But it cannot be illegal. Consent cannot be given, even in a drunken state, and then reneged upon after the act.
zeitgeist
Posts: 3076
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:14 am

Re: Yo, is Derrick Rose good again?

Post by zeitgeist »

mlhouse wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:22 pm
salamander wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:41 am
Sally wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:33 am

I think this is really well put.

Congrats on not making me want to vomit as I thought I might when I saw a post this long about this topic :thumbsup:
He raises some very good points.
And again, just to be clear, I do not agree with Derrick Rose's conduct. It is reprehensible. But it cannot be illegal. Consent cannot be given, even in a drunken state, and then reneged upon after the act.
Maybe I'm missing some key detail in this case but when did the woman give her consent and what proof do we have that this occurred?
mlhouse wrote: Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:52 pm Einstein has his area of expertise, I have mine.
larryhagmansliver
Posts: 319
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:16 pm

Re: Yo, is Derrick Rose good again?

Post by larryhagmansliver »

zeitgeist wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:29 pm
mlhouse wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:22 pm
salamander wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:41 am

He raises some very good points.
And again, just to be clear, I do not agree with Derrick Rose's conduct. It is reprehensible. But it cannot be illegal. Consent cannot be given, even in a drunken state, and then reneged upon after the act.
Maybe I'm missing some key detail in this case but when did the woman give her consent and what proof do we have that this occurred?
Well she let three men into her house in the middle of the night, she was obviously raring to go. And lets not get started with what she was wearing.
mlhouse
Posts: 24752
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:00 pm

Re: Yo, is Derrick Rose good again?

Post by mlhouse »

zeitgeist wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:29 pm
mlhouse wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:22 pm
salamander wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:41 am

He raises some very good points.
And again, just to be clear, I do not agree with Derrick Rose's conduct. It is reprehensible. But it cannot be illegal. Consent cannot be given, even in a drunken state, and then reneged upon after the act.
Maybe I'm missing some key detail in this case but when did the woman give her consent and what proof do we have that this occurred?
Although there isn't explicit proof of her consent, her actions subsequent to the party give solid circumstantial evidence. She was mad because Rose promised to pay for a taxi but never did, or some issue like that. The rape claims were developed much later.

Rose hounded this woman for a long time with sexual requests, but I think he finally caught her in a position where her inhibitions were compromised. So, he brings in a crew and they gang bang her. While it isn't the right thing to do, I don't think it was illegal.

One thing I think needs to be stressed more to our young people, particularly young women, you are responsible for yourself. Do not put yourself in these situations. IF Mike Tyson invites you up to his hotel room at 2AM, it isn't to discuss poetry. Tyson raped her, that I totally agree with. But, people need to avoid these predators too. Don't drink to excess. Don't do stupid things. WHile someone is trying to claim this is trying to shift the "blame", it isn't. Too often these factors are ignored because people don't want to "blame the victim", all the while our naive young people put themselves into danger time and time again.
zeitgeist
Posts: 3076
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:14 am

Re: Yo, is Derrick Rose good again?

Post by zeitgeist »

mlhouse wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:42 pm
zeitgeist wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:29 pm
mlhouse wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:22 pm

And again, just to be clear, I do not agree with Derrick Rose's conduct. It is reprehensible. But it cannot be illegal. Consent cannot be given, even in a drunken state, and then reneged upon after the act.
Maybe I'm missing some key detail in this case but when did the woman give her consent and what proof do we have that this occurred?
Although there isn't explicit proof of her consent, her actions subsequent to the party give solid circumstantial evidence. She was mad because Rose promised to pay for a taxi but never did, or some issue like that. The rape claims were developed much later.

Rose hounded this woman for a long time with sexual requests, but I think he finally caught her in a position where her inhibitions were compromised. So, he brings in a crew and they gang bang her. While it isn't the right thing to do, I don't think it was illegal.

One thing I think needs to be stressed more to our young people, particularly young women, you are responsible for yourself. Do not put yourself in these situations. IF Mike Tyson invites you up to his hotel room at 2AM, it isn't to discuss poetry. Tyson raped her, that I totally agree with. But, people need to avoid these predators too. Don't drink to excess. Don't do stupid things. WHile someone is trying to claim this is trying to shift the "blame", it isn't. Too often these factors are ignored because people don't want to "blame the victim", all the while our naive young people put themselves into danger time and time again.
It is shifting the blame actually. How a woman should act in order to avoid situations where they could be raped is a different one than whether someone is guilty of rape. How she acts does not matter unless you think there is some reasonable justification that exists for raping someone, because that is the line of logic that you are following. She was in her home and according to Derrick Rose there was no indication before he went over there that she wanted sex from him.
mlhouse wrote: Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:52 pm Einstein has his area of expertise, I have mine.
mlhouse
Posts: 24752
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:00 pm

Re: Yo, is Derrick Rose good again?

Post by mlhouse »

zeitgeist wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:48 pm
mlhouse wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:42 pm
zeitgeist wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:29 pm

Maybe I'm missing some key detail in this case but when did the woman give her consent and what proof do we have that this occurred?
Although there isn't explicit proof of her consent, her actions subsequent to the party give solid circumstantial evidence. She was mad because Rose promised to pay for a taxi but never did, or some issue like that. The rape claims were developed much later.

Rose hounded this woman for a long time with sexual requests, but I think he finally caught her in a position where her inhibitions were compromised. So, he brings in a crew and they gang bang her. While it isn't the right thing to do, I don't think it was illegal.

One thing I think needs to be stressed more to our young people, particularly young women, you are responsible for yourself. Do not put yourself in these situations. IF Mike Tyson invites you up to his hotel room at 2AM, it isn't to discuss poetry. Tyson raped her, that I totally agree with. But, people need to avoid these predators too. Don't drink to excess. Don't do stupid things. WHile someone is trying to claim this is trying to shift the "blame", it isn't. Too often these factors are ignored because people don't want to "blame the victim", all the while our naive young people put themselves into danger time and time again.
It is shifting the blame actually. How a woman should act in order to avoid situations where they could be raped is a different one than whether someone is guilty of rape. How she acts does not matter unless you think there is some reasonable justification that exists for raping someone, because that is the line of logic that you are following. She was in her home and according to Derrick Rose there was no indication before he went over there that she wanted sex from him.
Except if you take personal respobsibility you would avoid the situations all together.

Stating that you should not drink in excess or go to Mike Tyson's hotel room at 2AM is much different than saying that "this is justification for raping a person". In fact, I made that clear but the problem is that in our society of today people jump on those statements the way you do.

So, we have naive 21 year beauty pageant contestants going to Tyson's hotel room at 2AM or Derrick Rose's ex-girlfriend being totally sloshed out of their minds and dampening their inhibitions over and over again.

Making the statement of personal responsibility does not justify rape. It is advice on how to avoid rape and other bad things happening to you.
larryhagmansliver
Posts: 319
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:16 pm

Re: Yo, is Derrick Rose good again?

Post by larryhagmansliver »

mlhouse wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:29 pm
zeitgeist wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:48 pm
mlhouse wrote: Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:42 pm

Although there isn't explicit proof of her consent, her actions subsequent to the party give solid circumstantial evidence. She was mad because Rose promised to pay for a taxi but never did, or some issue like that. The rape claims were developed much later.

Rose hounded this woman for a long time with sexual requests, but I think he finally caught her in a position where her inhibitions were compromised. So, he brings in a crew and they gang bang her. While it isn't the right thing to do, I don't think it was illegal.

One thing I think needs to be stressed more to our young people, particularly young women, you are responsible for yourself. Do not put yourself in these situations. IF Mike Tyson invites you up to his hotel room at 2AM, it isn't to discuss poetry. Tyson raped her, that I totally agree with. But, people need to avoid these predators too. Don't drink to excess. Don't do stupid things. WHile someone is trying to claim this is trying to shift the "blame", it isn't. Too often these factors are ignored because people don't want to "blame the victim", all the while our naive young people put themselves into danger time and time again.
It is shifting the blame actually. How a woman should act in order to avoid situations where they could be raped is a different one than whether someone is guilty of rape. How she acts does not matter unless you think there is some reasonable justification that exists for raping someone, because that is the line of logic that you are following. She was in her home and according to Derrick Rose there was no indication before he went over there that she wanted sex from him.
Except if you take personal respobsibility you would avoid the situations all together.

Stating that you should not drink in excess or go to Mike Tyson's hotel room at 2AM is much different than saying that "this is justification for raping a person". In fact, I made that clear but the problem is that in our society of today people jump on those statements the way you do.

So, we have naive 21 year beauty pageant contestants going to Tyson's hotel room at 2AM or Derrick Rose's ex-girlfriend being totally sloshed out of their minds and dampening their inhibitions over and over again.

Making the statement of personal responsibility does not justify rape. It is advice on how to avoid rape and other bad things happening to you.
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