zeitgeist wrote: ↑Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:04 am
Tier 1
Stephen Curry/LeBron James
Tier 2
James Harden/Anthony Davis
Tier 3
Russell Westbrook
Chris Paul
Tier 4
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Jimmy Butler
Kevin Durant
Victor Oladipo
HM: Possibly Joel Embiid, tough to decide between him and Oladipo but I gave Oladipo the slight edge.
Really low on KD. I assume no Kawhi due to injury concerns?
Compared to the conventional thought on KD, yeah, I'm just not nearly as high on him as most people. The Warriors were a mess last season when it was Durant as the #1 option without Curry, they were a completely different team. Curry is just well ahead of Durant as a player in my mind, and the impact statistics bear that out. Westbrook has also pretty comfortably been better than Durant when they played together. Durant just tends to be this isolation scorer type that doesn't threaten teams as much as James, Curry, Harden or Westbrook. With that tier 4, I think all of them are really close though to be fair.
Kawhi missed most of last year and had a pretty major injury, I'm not sure if he'll be healthy next year.
mlhouse wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:52 pm
Einstein has his area of expertise, I have mine.
Interesting to compare these lists against top 10 in win shares:
Harden
KAT
LeBron
Davis
Lillard
Giannis
Aldridge
Jokic
Durant
Drummond
(win shares per 48, the Rockets had three of the top four players in the league!)
year before:
Harden
Gobert
Butler
Leonard
Westbrook
James
KAT
Curry
I. Thomas
Giannis
thinktank wrote: ↑Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:15 am
I’m a successful consultant for some of the biggest and best companies in the world. I tell you about systems architecture, not the other way around.
In list situations I think Klay get overly penalized by playing beside Steph and Durant. He is right there in my top 10 list, and i like him a hell of alot better than one way players like Kyrie/Lilliard, etc...
You mostly rely on the post season? I mostly rely on a person's ability to have a positive impact on the scoring margin when they are on the court with very careful consideration for the context surrounding how a person plays.
mlhouse wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:52 pm
Einstein has his area of expertise, I have mine.
j2j wrote: ↑Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:24 pm
I like Mitchell, but I think those putting him in the top 10 are grossly over-rating him.
Yeah, too soon. I think he has a good shot at making the all-star team this year though. He's everything you want in a player.... and he was available to many teams!
thinktank wrote: ↑Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:15 am
I’m a successful consultant for some of the biggest and best companies in the world. I tell you about systems architecture, not the other way around.
5. Davis
6. Irving
7. Paul
8. Lillard
9. Oladipo
10. Mitchell
Put CP3 back in after some research. His injury history scares me still. Maybe I drop him before the season starts.
Regarding how to evaluate these player, I mostly rely on the post-season. Regular season is a lot of stat padding.
I don't think people are picking their top 10 based on stats.
thinktank wrote: ↑Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:15 am
I’m a successful consultant for some of the biggest and best companies in the world. I tell you about systems architecture, not the other way around.
HeHateMe wrote: ↑Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:54 pmI don't think people are picking their top 10 based on stats.
These sound like (on/off advanced) stats:
zeitgeist wrote: ↑Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:02 amI mostly rely on a person's ability to have a positive impact on the scoring margin when they are on the court with very careful consideration for the context surrounding how a person plays.
HeHateMe wrote: ↑Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:54 pmI don't think people are picking their top 10 based on stats.
These sound like (on/off advanced) stats:
zeitgeist wrote: ↑Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:02 amI mostly rely on a person's ability to have a positive impact on the scoring margin when they are on the court with very careful consideration for the context surrounding how a person plays.
Nice job circumventing your ban Froob.
You understand there's a difference between a statistic helping to inform your opinions vs relying solely on a statistic to determine their top 10? If I was solely using plus/minus information I wouldn't have reached the conclusions that I did. LeBron probably wouldn't be in the top 10 at all because his defense was so awful in the regular season that he wasn't a very positive player in the regular season. The difference is of course that he is getting older and he is saving his energy to do everything he can to win a championship in the post season where he proved he was still very capable, so he's a bit difficult to rank but ultimately I had him tied with Steph Curry because Steph Curry is a plus/minus freak but there are other reasons to knock him down a tad.
Last edited by zeitgeist on Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
mlhouse wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:52 pm
Einstein has his area of expertise, I have mine.
1 through 10 (assuming everyone is healthy) in no particular order:
Freak
AD
KD
Steph
Harden
Kawhi
Westbrook
CP3
Kyrie
LBJ
***I really want to include Jayson Tatum on this list as I think he becomes the next bonafide superstar, even on a beyond-loaded Celts team. Who do you take off? I still think the older guys on here will still be elite.
Tatum is going to be a beast. I underrated him coming out. Maybe he's more Melo like of he goes elsewhere, so maybe Stevens gets some credit? But kid can play, and he's a hell of a defender as well.
We've been trying to reach you about your car's extended warranty.
j2j wrote: ↑Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:10 am
Tatum is going to be a beast. I underrated him coming out. Maybe he's more Melo like of he goes elsewhere, so maybe Stevens gets some credit? But kid can play, and he's a hell of a defender as well.
Admittedly, I don't watch much college b-ball until the tourney. So, other than the fact that I knew he was a top recruit, I didn't know much about him. I do like the fact that he's got some 'D' to his game--not that I watch many Celtics games, other than an occasional prime-time match-up and playoffs. For whatever reason, he just seems to have that "it" factor...I may be about a year to early, though. As mentioned earlier, that team is loaded. Especially at the wing position. Still, though, somehow I think he establishes himself as an elite player. So, long story short, that's my player I feel most likely to knock someone outta my top 10.
Westbrook's talent gets in the way of winning, as strange as that is to say.
i don't get mitchell over westbrook. at all. westbrook has had two seasons in a row now averaging a DD (with 31 and 25 ppg) - 10 year career avgs of 23/7/8. and mitchell had a great rookie season - of 21/4/4, considerably below westbrook's career numbers. he could slump this year like 70% of rooks do in their sophomore year. hell, MCW's rookie season was 17/6/6. i mean, mitchell looks like he's going to be great - but he's got nowhere near the body of work that RW has - plus westbrook ain't exactly washed up yet.
There is little difference between the memory of a real event and the memory of a dream.
j2j wrote: ↑Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:10 am
Tatum is going to be a beast. I underrated him coming out. Maybe he's more Melo like of he goes elsewhere, so maybe Stevens gets some credit? But kid can play, and he's a hell of a defender as well.
Admittedly, I don't watch much college b-ball until the tourney. So, other than the fact that I knew he was a top recruit, I didn't know much about him. I do like the fact that he's got some 'D' to his game--not that I watch many Celtics games, other than an occasional prime-time match-up and playoffs. For whatever reason, he just seems to have that "it" factor...I may be about a year to early, though. As mentioned earlier, that team is loaded. Especially at the wing position. Still, though, somehow I think he establishes himself as an elite player. So, long story short, that's my player I feel most likely to knock someone outta my top 10.
I like Tatum and Simmons much more than Mitchell.
I think I soured a little on Tatum because his high school coach was a world class d-bag. I'm now woke, as the kids say.
We've been trying to reach you about your car's extended warranty.
Westbrook's talent gets in the way of winning, as strange as that is to say.
i don't get mitchell over westbrook. at all. westbrook has had two seasons in a row now averaging a DD (with 31 and 25 ppg) - 10 year career avgs of 23/7/8. and mitchell had a great rookie season - of 21/4/4, considerably below westbrook's career numbers. he could slump this year like 70% of rooks do in their sophomore year. hell, MCW's rookie season was 17/6/6. i mean, mitchell looks like he's going to be great - but he's got nowhere near the body of work that RW has - plus westbrook ain't exactly washed up yet.
You make great points. My main point is that Westbrook is his own worst enemy. His timing for calling his own number really hurts him. His emotions got him a huge tech that likely cost them a playoff game. Mitchell was the opposite. He stepped up during the biggest, most important moments of their playoff series. WS/48 (not a huge deal) bears my take out, as Mitchell was a tad better than Westbrook when they met in the playoffs. B-ball is a TEAM game.
Mitchell could go into a slump this year, but I think he’s too bright for that. I think it’s likelier that he continues to improve.
j2j wrote: ↑Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:10 am
Tatum is going to be a beast. I underrated him coming out. Maybe he's more Melo like of he goes elsewhere, so maybe Stevens gets some credit? But kid can play, and he's a hell of a defender as well.
Admittedly, I don't watch much college b-ball until the tourney. So, other than the fact that I knew he was a top recruit, I didn't know much about him. I do like the fact that he's got some 'D' to his game--not that I watch many Celtics games, other than an occasional prime-time match-up and playoffs. For whatever reason, he just seems to have that "it" factor...I may be about a year to early, though. As mentioned earlier, that team is loaded. Especially at the wing position. Still, though, somehow I think he establishes himself as an elite player. So, long story short, that's my player I feel most likely to knock someone outta my top 10.
I like Tatum and Simmons much more than Mitchell.
I think I soured a little on Tatum because his high school coach was a world class d-bag. I'm now woke, as the kids say.
I've always admired your posts. I have no idea who Tatum's high school coach was...pardon my ignorance. I would also add Simmons and Embiid to my list above Mitchell, though I love the kid. And I certainly enjoy his "feel good" stories--the league (and sports) need more of those. I hope he plays 15 years in Utah as I think a more balanced league makes for a better league.
Feel like Giannis is being way low balled in this thread.
I dont have a top 10 right now, but I'm taking Giannis over everyone but LeBron, Durant and Curry...Then, its either AD or Greek. I guess I got my top 5 at least.
bubu dubu. wrote: ↑Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:58 pm
Feel like Giannis is being way low balled in this thread.
I dont have a top 10 right now, but I'm taking Giannis over everyone but LeBron, Durant and Curry...Then, its either AD or Greek. I guess I got my top 5 at least.
bubu dubu. wrote: ↑Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:58 pm
Feel like Giannis is being way low balled in this thread.
I dont have a top 10 right now, but I'm taking Giannis over everyone but LeBron, Durant and Curry...Then, its either AD or Greek. I guess I got my top 5 at least.
He can get to the rim. He can block shots and play D. He can pass, he can rebound.
His TS% is a bit of a cap. 76% at the line. Can't shoot threes.
Is that an alpha player?
I don't think so.
Whats this whole thing with Alpha's I've seen popping up in this chat?
So the dude can't shoot three's, but he does everything else...all of a sudden he's a beta to a guy like Harden who can hit threes but doesnt do any of the other things Giannis does?
Giannis (with the exception of a few players) does everything better than everyone for his position, while being able to play 5 positions...but we are going to call him inferior because he can't shoot 3's?
Giannis is a perennial DPOY candidate, while still dropping 25+ efficient points (3 point or not) on the offensive end.
Giannis is not quite the impact player that those top level guys are yet. He's absolutely not a perennial DPOY candidate, unless you're talking about being a top 10 finalist or something. There are several better defenders. His passing numbers look solid but he's not that great of a passer given how much he has the ball in his hands. He just has exceptional ball handling and quickness for a guy that size and certainly around the rim he's incredibly difficult to stop from scoring. He'll be in the top 5 sometime soon, maybe in the next 1-2 years but he's not there yet.
mlhouse wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:52 pm
Einstein has his area of expertise, I have mine.
Westbrook's talent gets in the way of winning, as strange as that is to say.
Just as I predicted years ago - Rubio being a smart true Team basketball playing PG, made Westbrook look like a volume scoring SG that makes for a shit PG and a forever playoff loser.
OKC would be better if they had a distributing PG and Westbrook was their SG. I’ve always said that and it is now inarguably correct.
zeitgeist wrote: ↑Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:29 am
Giannis is not quite the impact player that those top level guys are yet. He's absolutely not a perennial DPOY candidate, unless you're talking about being a top 10 finalist or something. There are several better defenders. His passing numbers look solid but he's not that great of a passer given how much he has the ball in his hands. He just has exceptional ball handling and quickness for a guy that size and certainly around the rim he's incredibly difficult to stop from scoring. He'll be in the top 5 sometime soon, maybe in the next 1-2 years but he's not there yet.
Perrenial DPOY was definitely an overstatement on my part. How about perennial All Defensive team candidate?
jodaman01 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:13 amJust as I predicted years ago - Rubio being a smart true Team basketball playing PG, made Westbrook look like a volume scoring SG that makes for a shit PG and a forever playoff loser.
OKC would be better if they had a distributing PG and Westbrook was their SG. I’ve always said that and it is now inarguably correct.
jodadamus.
Westbrook has never changed. Rubio has zero to do with my preference for Mitchell over Westbrook. Quit stroking yourself.
jodaman01 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:13 amJust as I predicted years ago - Rubio being a smart true Team basketball playing PG, made Westbrook look like a volume scoring SG that makes for a shit PG and a forever playoff loser.
OKC would be better if they had a distributing PG and Westbrook was their SG. I’ve always said that and it is now inarguably correct.
jodadamus.
Westbrook has never changed. Rubio has zero to do with my preference for Mitchell over Westbrook. Quit stroking yourself.
Don’t care - any talk about Westbrook gives me all the opening I need to throw an “I Told You So” into any Westbrook lover’s face (and there are so got’ damn many).
So with that... cue the music!
I stroke it to the east
And I stroke it to the west
And I stroke it to the woman that I love the best
I be strokin'…
Lebron
Curry (DId what Durant couldn't do, which was win a championship without the other)
Durant (couldnt get a very good OKC team over the hump)
AD
Giannis
Harden
Kawhi (likely higher in a full healthy season)
Westbrook (One of the few players in the league who would make nearly every team a perennial playoff team)
IMO this is where it gets really hard. Theres like 10 or so more players that can be interchangeable on the list...With the right to change my opinion in the future, Ill go...
Lillard
Paul
Butler (Add one player to a decent core, and all of a sudden playoffs)
zeitgeist wrote: ↑Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:29 am
Giannis is not quite the impact player that those top level guys are yet. He's absolutely not a perennial DPOY candidate, unless you're talking about being a top 10 finalist or something. There are several better defenders. His passing numbers look solid but he's not that great of a passer given how much he has the ball in his hands. He just has exceptional ball handling and quickness for a guy that size and certainly around the rim he's incredibly difficult to stop from scoring. He'll be in the top 5 sometime soon, maybe in the next 1-2 years but he's not there yet.
Perrenial DPOY was definitely an overstatement on my part. How about perennial All Defensive team candidate?
Sure, I could agree with that.
mlhouse wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:52 pm
Einstein has his area of expertise, I have mine.
