is wrestling ruining the UFC?

[Bailey'sBigBoot]

the last 2 "monumental" title fights were boring fights with no action, no clean punches landing. The Henry Cejudo guy was a superior wrestler so he spent 25 minutes taking the other dude down and lying on top of him. Then it was the Khabib guy's turn to do the same thing. 2 rounds of nothing but one guy being pinned down until he got choked.

I'm not saying it's ineffective, but you can't argue it's bad for the excitement aspect of the sport.

[RubeTube]

the last 2 "monumental" title fights were boring fights with no action, no clean punches landing. The Henry Cejudo guy was a superior wrestler so he spent 25 minutes taking the other dude down and lying on top of him. Then it was the Khabib guy's turn to do the same thing. 2 rounds of nothing but one guy being pinned down until he got choked.

I'm not saying it's ineffective, but you can't argue it's bad for the excitement aspect of the sport.

You would of hated it back in the day. Remember when you could rent these on VHS? Dan Severn, Ken Shamrock etc..

It's always been ghey as fuck. Dry humping until someone needs to be cleaned up with affliction shirt.

[Douglas Bubbletrousers]

Then somehow the UFC tards try to pretend it was exciting to watch or something. "Woah did you see how Khabib had Conor pinned down for 5 minutes straight?!" "Yeah that was insane! Conor couldn't get away for the life of him!!"

[Cobey]

It's been that way forever, yet UFC is currently bigger than ever. Even when Lesnar was the big swinging dick in the UFC, his wrestling and "ground and pound" were really his only weapons. Currently, the biggest potential shortcoming that the UFC is facing currently is the match making and the seemingly political nature that Dana White and team have been taking of late, along with the "need" to have a title on the line for every PPV main event. The whole thing seems to be dangerously close to an over-exposed and watered down product.

Wrestling is a necessary part of the fight. The two worst/most boring fights in the UFC this year had little to no wrestling at all (Till v Wonderboy and Lewis v Ngannou)

[DC4MVP]

yet UFC is currently bigger than ever.

I don't think it's bigger than ever. I actually think it's a decent ways down the mountain compared to when it was really at it's peak in the 2008-2011 years that saw amazing TV ratings and highest average PPV buys.

UFC is 100% reliant on Conor at the moment. Everyone knows Conor. That's undeniable but most casuals couldn't name 2 other champions outside of Cormier and Khabib. Sure, they're bigger in terms of global reach with Fox but if you look at the PPV numbers, UFC isn't as big as we think it is. Conor just spikes the numbers for a card then they drop back down which makes it look like UFC is bigger than ever.

[Bailey'sBigBoot]

It's been that way forever, yet UFC is currently bigger than ever. Even when Lesnar was the big swinging dick in the UFC, his wrestling and "ground and pound" were really his only weapons.

I feel like his wrestling was way more excited because he got on top and tried to end the fight. Now it's just get on top and try to not get knocked out standing so you win on the scorecard.

[Cobey]

yet UFC is currently bigger than ever.

I don't think it's bigger than ever. I actually think it's a decent ways down the mountain compared to when it was really at it's peak in the 2008-2011 years that saw amazing TV ratings and highest average PPV buys.

UFC is 100% reliant on Conor at the moment. Everyone knows Conor. That's undeniable but most casuals couldn't name 2 other champions outside of Cormier and Khabib. Sure, they're bigger in terms of global reach with Fox but if you look at the PPV numbers, UFC isn't as big as we think it is. Conor just spikes the numbers for a card then they drop back down which makes it look like UFC is bigger than ever.

Most of that is due to PPV being an outdated means of getting your product out there. I don't know what the answer is for the replacement to it, but the PPV model needs to go (probably another discussion for another day, tbh). I guarantee you more people streamed Conor v Khabib illegally than bought it.
You're not wrong about Conor and that's part of the "over-exposed" thing. A lot of those FS1 cards have been dog shit this year, but that being said, it's bigger mainstream now than it has ever been. It's gonna be on ESPN next year, and they paid a pile of cash to get it on there. It's still a fringe sport, no question about it, and it's probably always going to be that way. But it's bigger and seen as more "legitimate" by mainstream outlets/advertisers (ex. the Reebok deal)

[Cobey]

It's been that way forever, yet UFC is currently bigger than ever. Even when Lesnar was the big swinging dick in the UFC, his wrestling and "ground and pound" were really his only weapons.

I feel like his wrestling was way more excited because he got on top and tried to end the fight. Now it's just get on top and try to not get knocked out standing so you win on the scorecard.

Some wrestling can be that way, certainly. But the vast majority of wrestling done is in an attempt to get some BJJ exchanges going in an attempt to get a submission. It's not exciting to casuals, I'm not denying that. And maybe it does alienate the product to new eyes, but it's not going anywhere

[DC4MVP]

yet UFC is currently bigger than ever.

I don't think it's bigger than ever. I actually think it's a decent ways down the mountain compared to when it was really at it's peak in the 2008-2011 years that saw amazing TV ratings and highest average PPV buys.

UFC is 100% reliant on Conor at the moment. Everyone knows Conor. That's undeniable but most casuals couldn't name 2 other champions outside of Cormier and Khabib. Sure, they're bigger in terms of global reach with Fox but if you look at the PPV numbers, UFC isn't as big as we think it is. Conor just spikes the numbers for a card then they drop back down which makes it look like UFC is bigger than ever.

Most of that is due to PPV being an outdated means of getting your product out there. I don't know what the answer is for the replacement to it, but the PPV model needs to go (probably another discussion for another day, tbh). I guarantee you more people streamed Conor v Khabib illegally than bought it.
You're not wrong about Conor and that's part of the "over-exposed" thing. A lot of those FS1 cards have been dog shit this year, but that being said, it's bigger mainstream now than it has ever been. It's gonna be on ESPN next year, and they paid a pile of cash to get it on there. It's still a fringe sport, no question about it, and it's probably always going to be that way. But it's bigger and seen as more "legitimate" by mainstream outlets/advertisers (ex. the Reebok deal)

I agree that it's bigger mainstream, certainly. I agree there. I wasn't sure if you were meaning that or in terms of popularity.

I don't think it's nearly as popular as it was during the post-TUF period (2005) until they added 145, 135, 125, and then the two women's divisions which made them put on 98 cards a month ranging from Fox to Fox Sports 1 to Fox Sports 45.

Now, you have 10 champions (or more with interims), it's hard to invest in 10 champions instead of the peak days when you had 155, 170, 185, 205, and 265. The Fite Nite cards were great because you'd usually get the #4-7 ranked guys fighting on those cards to establish contenders. Now, most these 2nd rate cards feature guys 2-3 wins away from even being considered for a title.

With so many fighters, it's so damn hard to follow the up-and-coming prospects which means they're not making stars.

I also don't think you can look at illegal streaming and say that's why the PPV buy-rates aren't anywhere close to 2008-2011. Sure, for a fight like McGregor, you're going to get a lot of illegal streams but then you go to something like UFC 231 which people aren't going to be finding illegal streams to watch Holloway & Ortega

If UFC had the star power it did from the time frame I mentioned, I think UFC would be HUUUUUUUGGGGGEEEEE right now.

[Bailey'sBigBoot]

It's been that way forever, yet UFC is currently bigger than ever. Even when Lesnar was the big swinging dick in the UFC, his wrestling and "ground and pound" were really his only weapons.

I feel like his wrestling was way more excited because he got on top and tried to end the fight. Now it's just get on top and try to not get knocked out standing so you win on the scorecard.

Some wrestling can be that way, certainly. But the vast majority of wrestling done is in an attempt to get some BJJ exchanges going in an attempt to get a submission. It's not exciting to casuals, I'm not denying that. And maybe it does alienate the product to new eyes, but it's not going anywhere

I'm a BJJ purple belt and I didn't see anything exciting in the last 2 fights concerning the grappling. Maybe I'm still a casual in terms of UFC fandom or whatever but I'm just pointing out it seems lackluster.

[Cobey]

I agree that it's bigger mainstream, certainly. I agree there. I wasn't sure if you were meaning that or in terms of popularity.

I don't think it's nearly as popular as it was during the post-TUF period (2005) until they added 145, 135, 125, and then the two women's divisions which made them put on 98 cards a month ranging from Fox to Fox Sports 1 to Fox Sports 45.

Now, you have 10 champions (or more with interims), it's hard to invest in 10 champions instead of the peak days when you had 155, 170, 185, 205, and 265. The Fite Nite cards were great because you'd usually get the #4-7 ranked guys fighting on those cards to establish contenders. Now, most these 2nd rate cards feature guys 2-3 wins away from even being considered for a title.

With so many fighters, it's so damn hard to follow the up-and-coming prospects which means they're not making stars.

I also don't think you can look at illegal streaming and say that's why the PPV buy-rates aren't anywhere close to 2008-2011. Sure, for a fight like McGregor, you're going to get a lot of illegal streams but then you go to something like UFC 231 which people aren't going to be finding illegal streams to watch Holloway & Ortega

If UFC had the star power it did from the time frame I mentioned, I think UFC would be HUUUUUUUGGGGGEEEEE right now.

The worst move the UFC made was getting bought out by that giant agency a few years ago. It moved the business more toward short-term bottom dollar and didn't allow them to build up stars like they did in the eras you're referring to. But it probably opened doors to "mainstream" success at the same time. I honestly think the talent pool is there right now across all the weight classes (with the exception of FW...Mighty Mouse is tremendous, Cejudo showed something in that last fight, but the matchups have been exhausted). The UFC machine getting behind some fighters beyond Conor and the older guys like GSP would do wonders for the product.

Illegal streaming is going to always be an issue obviously. But the PPV barrier to entry is likely to be too much for a lot of the casuals for 75% of the fights...especially at $65 a pop. I like the model that WWE put in, personally. UFC has a similar product out there for watching their archive and a small amount of original programming, but expanding that to include PPVs would expand their viewership immensely imo. We'd just have to sit through a few more ads, more than likely

[Cobey]

I feel like his wrestling was way more excited because he got on top and tried to end the fight. Now it's just get on top and try to not get knocked out standing so you win on the scorecard.

Some wrestling can be that way, certainly. But the vast majority of wrestling done is in an attempt to get some BJJ exchanges going in an attempt to get a submission. It's not exciting to casuals, I'm not denying that. And maybe it does alienate the product to new eyes, but it's not going anywhere

I'm a BJJ purple belt and I didn't see anything exciting in the last 2 fights concerning the grappling. Maybe I'm still a casual in terms of UFC fandom or whatever but I'm just pointing out it seems lackluster.

I guess it depends on your point of view. Woodley tapping Till was pretty legit, Ferguson and Pettis was maybe one of the more fun fights I've seen all year until the lackluster ending. Even the Khabib v McGregor fight I thought mostly delivered in that regard.