Keep in mind, the Twins are still CHEAP!!!

[Face The Facts]

This is how the Twins Payroll has ranked over the last 21 seasons.

Year Payroll Rank
1998 24
1999 29
2000 30
2001 30
2002 27
2003 18
2004 19
2005 20
2006 19
2007 18
2008 25
2009 24
2010 11
2011 9
2012 13
2013 22
2014 24
2015 18
2016 18
2017 22
2018 21

I bolded the three seasons where they were top half.


Payroll Rank of Teams who have won the World Series:

Year Payroll Rank
1998 2
1999 1
2000 1
2001 8
2002 15
2003 25
2004 2
2005 13
2006 11
2007 2
2008 12
2009 1
2010 10
2011 11
2012 8
2013 4
2014 7
2015 16
2016 14
2017 18


I've bolded the seasons where a team in the bottom half for payroll won the World Series.

Out of 21 seasons, we had 3 years where we were in top half.
Out of 20 seasons, only 3 years did a team in the bottom half of payroll win the WS.

Getting the Twins to matchup with those odds are nearly impossible, so it's not a shock we didn't win a World Series, nor will we soon.

[Tuck ya in]

Thanks for posting this.

[RubeTube]

It will never change.

[Face The Facts]

The want you to believe it will, but it won't. It hasn't changed for 25 years and that includes the death of both owners.

[jakazz30]

This is how the Twins Payroll has ranked over the last 21 seasons.

Year Payroll Rank
1998 24
1999 29
2000 30
2001 30
2002 27
2003 18
2004 19
2005 20
2006 19
2007 18
2008 25
2009 24
2010 11
2011 9
2012 13
2013 22
2014 24
2015 18
2016 18
2017 22
2018 21

I bolded the three seasons where they were top half.


Payroll Rank of Teams who have won the World Series:

Year Payroll Rank
1998 2
1999 1
2000 1
2001 8
2002 15
2003 25
2004 2
2005 13
2006 11
2007 2
2008 12
2009 1
2010 10
2011 11
2012 8
2013 4
2014 7
2015 16
2016 14
2017 18


I've bolded the seasons where a team in the bottom half for payroll won the World Series.

Out of 21 seasons, we had 3 years where we were in top half.
Out of 20 seasons, only 3 years did a team in the bottom half of payroll win the WS.

Getting the Twins to matchup with those odds are nearly impossible, so it's not a shock we didn't win a World Series, nor will we soon.

Source?

I'll link to one that says that is inaccurate..


http://www.stevetheump.com/Payrolls.htm

[RubeTube]

The want you to believe it will, but it won't. It hasn't changed for 25 years and that includes the death of both owners.

Well they are not pulling one by me lol. They haven't signed a top FA in my life.


It's really unreal when you think about it. Is there a team in all of pro sports who can say this?

[jakazz30]

The want you to believe it will, but it won't. It hasn't changed for 25 years and that includes the death of both owners.

Well they are not pulling one by me lol. They haven't signed a top FA in my life.


It's really unreal when you think about it. Is there a team in all of pro sports who can say this?

What's a "top FA" in your opinion?
Then I can reply..

[RubeTube]

The want you to believe it will, but it won't. It hasn't changed for 25 years and that includes the death of both owners.

Well they are not pulling one by me lol. They haven't signed a top FA in my life.


It's really unreal when you think about it. Is there a team in all of pro sports who can say this?

What's a "top FA" in your opinion?
Then I can reply..

Come on! No need to argue this. A top dog player.

[jakazz30]

Well they are not pulling one by me lol. They haven't signed a top FA in my life.


It's really unreal when you think about it. Is there a team in all of pro sports who can say this?

What's a "top FA" in your opinion?
Then I can reply..

Come on! No need to argue this. A top dog player.

Okay...
the MN Timberwolves.

[RubeTube]

What's a "top FA" in your opinion?
Then I can reply..

Come on! No need to argue this. A top dog player.

Okay...
the MN Timberwolves.

They have had a few like Latrell Sprewell etc. They haven't had many but the NBA is different. The Wolves would sing them if they would come here. They try but nobody wants to come to the Wolves for good reason.

It wasn't a FA but they traded for a top 15 player in the league last year. The Twins don't even trade for anything worth a shit.

Remember the year they wouldn't give up turds like Slowey or Baker for Cliff Lee? How about when they could of got a haul for Johan and ended up with GO Go?

You know why the Twins didn't take the haul? They didn't want to pay those contracts coming back

You can believe what you want but the Twins are going to continue to suck until they make some power moves

[jakazz30]

Come on! No need to argue this. A top dog player.

Okay...
the MN Timberwolves.

They have had a few like Latrell Sprewell etc. They haven't had many but the NBA is different. The Wolves would sing them if they would come here. They try but nobody wants to come to the Wolves for good reason.

It wasn't a FA but they traded for a top 15 player in the league last year. The Twins don't even trade for anything worth a shit.

Remember the year they wouldn't give up turds like Slowey or Baker for Cliff Lee? How about when they could of got a haul for Johan and ended up with GO Go?

You know why the Twins didn't take the haul? They didn't want to pay those contracts coming back

You can believe what you want but the Twins are going to continue to suck until they make some power moves

Sprewell was a trade.
Cassell was a trade.
Butler was a trade.

They have never signed a top FA.

Did they ever sign any of them to a new higher contract?
Or were they gone before a new deal had to be signed?

[Thrillkill]

The smart move is to do what they did last year. No top guys, wait to see who's around a week or so into the 2nd tier and try to spend maybe 2/3 of their freed up money on short deals. Best case the young guys take another step and a couple of the guys you sign have great years. Then you contend. If it goes like this year you continue to build the system by selling off at the deadline. Most likely case 1 of those guys is a keeper, a few young guys take a step and the others are out of the long term plans but at least you know. And just a couple steps forward in a shit division at least gives us a year to play some meaningful games. Then next year we have the money to get a legit guy or 2 and we know where we need them.

With our youth coming into young vet stage it should be 1/3 looking to improve and 2/3 looking at 2-5 years down the line. Set up for the big step next offseason.

[jakazz30]

The want you to believe it will, but it won't. It hasn't changed for 25 years and that includes the death of both owners.

Trying to "Face the Facts"....

The Twins have had 2 owners in the last 25 years...
1 of them is very much alive.

The only other owner in their history sold the team in '84.

[Thrillkill]

The want you to believe it will, but it won't. It hasn't changed for 25 years and that includes the death of both owners.

Trying to "Face the Facts"....

The Twins have had 2 owners in the last 25 years...
1 of them is very much alive.

The only other owner in their history sold the team in '84.

Pohlad is gone. Replaced by Pohlads sure.

[flexbuffchest]

Wonder who will be this years Yu Darvish, Machado?

[whiskerbiscuit]

They're cheap but they could and should have a title and multiple WS appearances if they made the right moves with the money they did spend.

Should've kept Ortiz, obviously.

Should've signed Frank Thomas in 06.

Should've got Lee in 10.

Its not necessarily that they don't spend the money, but they haven't pulled the trigger when they needed to. They were too scared. I think the current regime would be mode aggressive if the chance presented itself. We'll see. I could be wrong.

[jakazz30]

They're cheap but they could and should have a title and multiple WS appearances if they made the right moves with the money they did spend.

Should've kept Ortiz, obviously.

Should've signed Frank Thomas in 06.

Should've got Lee in 10.

Its not necessarily that they don't spend the money, but they haven't pulled the trigger when they needed to. They were too scared. I think the current regime would be mode aggressive if the chance presented itself. We'll see. I could be wrong.

I'm so tired of that "Ortiz" crap...

How long ago was that?

How many other players have the Twins let go where we have heard "he's going to be like Ortiz" and it never happened?

[jakazz30]

Wonder who will be this years Yu Darvish, Machado?

Geez...it would've been great if they signed Darvish.

He had such an amazing season...

[whiskerbiscuit]

They're cheap but they could and should have a title and multiple WS appearances if they made the right moves with the money they did spend.

Should've kept Ortiz, obviously.

Should've signed Frank Thomas in 06.

Should've got Lee in 10.

Its not necessarily that they don't spend the money, but they haven't pulled the trigger when they needed to. They were too scared. I think the current regime would be mode aggressive if the chance presented itself. We'll see. I could be wrong.

I'm so tired of that "Ortiz" crap...

How long ago was that?

How many other players have the Twins let go where we have heard "he's going to be like Ortiz" and it never happened?

The OP essentially said that the reason we haven't won a WS in so long is because we are cheap.


While it's true that we certainly are cheap, that isn't the reason we havent won a title. Ortiz didn't leave because he cost too much, we just cut him. Frank Thomas and Cliff Lee didn't go elsewhere because the Twins we're cheap, they did because we just flat out made the wrong decision.

That's all I'm saying. We could have a title and probably multiple WS appearances simply with better decision making and not more money.

[The Replacements]

The Ortiz story is documented fiction. He was an ok player for the Twins. He couldn't hit lefties, had knee problems and was 27 years old. The Twins tried to trade him but found no takers. Ortiz signed a non-guaranteed free agent contract with the Red Sox that would be worth $1.25 million if he made the team. I believe Ortiz started using PED's because he was fearful of losing his career. I believe that played a big role in him staying healthy and reached HOF numbers. Would he have been the same player for the Twins? I don't think so.

[Tommy_Hawk]

They're cheap but they could and should have a title and multiple WS appearances if they made the right moves with the money they did spend.

Should've kept Ortiz, obviously.

Should've signed Frank Thomas in 06.

Should've got Lee in 10.

Its not necessarily that they don't spend the money, but they haven't pulled the trigger when they needed to. They were too scared. I think the current regime would be mode aggressive if the chance presented itself. We'll see. I could be wrong.

I'm so tired of that "Ortiz" crap...

How long ago was that?

How many other players have the Twins let go where we have heard "he's going to be like Ortiz" and it never happened?

The OP essentially said that the reason we haven't won a WS in so long is because we are cheap.


While it's true that we certainly are cheap, that isn't the reason we havent won a title. Ortiz didn't leave because he cost too much, we just cut him. Frank Thomas and Cliff Lee didn't go elsewhere because the Twins we're cheap, they did because we just flat out made the wrong decision.

That's all I'm saying. We could have a title and probably multiple WS appearances simply with better decision making and not more money.

The fact Smith essentially traded Santana for Gomez, when they already had Span, is what lingers.

Garza and Bartlett(Rays' Captain WS year) for Young.

Gomez for JJ Hardy.

Span and Revere for nobodys.

Hicks for Murphy.

The fact their best trade was Ty Austin for Lynn is funny to me, but then again, the Yankees can just buy another 1B next season, or eventually move Judge to 1B.

The team is cheap because they refuse to keep their good players when they have them, instead of trading them for peanuts.

[D_H]

Ownership is laughing all the way to the bank they could care less if the Twins win

[beetlebum71]

It's pretty simple to figure out how cheap the Twins have been.

In general, a team spending properly on players will put 51% of their revenue into their player payroll. According to https://www.statista.com/statistics/196 ... ince-2006/, the Twins made $261 million in revenue in 2017. Their 2017 payroll, according to Spotrac, was roughly $121 million. That's about 46% of revenue. They would have had to add about $12 million to hit 51%.

Spotrac lists the Twins' 2018 payroll as $115 million, or $6 million less than last year. Assuming about a $10 million bump in revenue, which is reasonable given recent trends in that area, let's call their 2018 revenue an even $270 million. That means they spent only about 42.5% of their revenue on payroll. Now, some of that dip is the result of trading a bunch of players due to sucking in the first half of the season. Their opening day payroll was roughly $128 million, according to this article. https://www.twincities.com/2018/03/28/ ... 4-million/. That number makes their payroll just north of 47% of their revenue. That would represent a small increase over last year, but would be roughly the same. Here's the last number of years, with all numbers being in millions:

2016 - $249/$97 = 39%
2015 - $240/$107 = 44%
2014 - $223/$87 = 39%
2013 - $221/$81 = 37%
2012 - $214/$109 = 51%
2011 - $213/$113 = 53%

So, since the team's last trip to the ALDS, they've had just 2 years where they spent up to 51% of revenue, and those seasons were 6 and 7 years ago. Now, I'm not a proponent of spending money just to spend it. I think that gets you in trouble. But, when your revenue numbers give you the ability to spend an extra $12 to $15 million on a team you hope can compete for a division title, you need to do that. That's two more good bullpen arms. That's another solid starting pitcher, or maybe an upgrade on one of the starting pitchers you signed for less than that. That's important money that the Twins are pocketing instead of putting on the field.

[whiskerbiscuit]

The Ortiz story is documented fiction. He was an ok player for the Twins. He couldn't hit lefties, had knee problems and was 27 years old. The Twins tried to trade him but found no takers. Ortiz signed a non-guaranteed free agent contract with the Red Sox that would be worth $1.25 million if he made the team. I believe Ortiz started using PED's because he was fearful of losing his career. I believe that played a big role in him staying healthy and reached HOF numbers. Would he have been the same player for the Twins? I don't think so.

Hogwash. I was but sixteen at the time, and I even knew it was a bad move.


He was an ok player but the power bat that we absolutely needed the next 3 or 4 years.

He was better than the stiffs we had at DH those years even before he allegedly started using peds. Just a bad and unnecessary move.

He always had 40 to 50 HR power.

[whiskerbiscuit]

I'm so tired of that "Ortiz" crap...

How long ago was that?

How many other players have the Twins let go where we have heard "he's going to be like Ortiz" and it never happened?

The OP essentially said that the reason we haven't won a WS in so long is because we are cheap.


While it's true that we certainly are cheap, that isn't the reason we havent won a title. Ortiz didn't leave because he cost too much, we just cut him. Frank Thomas and Cliff Lee didn't go elsewhere because the Twins we're cheap, they did because we just flat out made the wrong decision.

That's all I'm saying. We could have a title and probably multiple WS appearances simply with better decision making and not more money.

The fact Smith essentially traded Santana for Gomez, when they already had Span, is what lingers.

Garza and Bartlett(Rays' Captain WS year) for Young.

Gomez for JJ Hardy.

Span and Revere for nobodys.

Hicks for Murphy.

The fact their best trade was Ty Austin for Lynn is funny to me, but then again, the Yankees can just buy another 1B next season, or eventually move Judge to 1B.

The team is cheap because they refuse to keep their good players when they have them, instead of trading them for peanuts.

Yea. I'm still not sure that would have a title if simply kept all their players.


Maybe 08 or 09 if they kept Santana and hunter. Maybe.

[Tommy_Hawk]

The OP essentially said that the reason we haven't won a WS in so long is because we are cheap.


While it's true that we certainly are cheap, that isn't the reason we havent won a title. Ortiz didn't leave because he cost too much, we just cut him. Frank Thomas and Cliff Lee didn't go elsewhere because the Twins we're cheap, they did because we just flat out made the wrong decision.

That's all I'm saying. We could have a title and probably multiple WS appearances simply with better decision making and not more money.

The fact Smith essentially traded Santana for Gomez, when they already had Span, is what lingers.

Garza and Bartlett(Rays' Captain WS year) for Young.

Gomez for JJ Hardy.

Span and Revere for nobodys.

Hicks for Murphy.

The fact their best trade was Ty Austin for Lynn is funny to me, but then again, the Yankees can just buy another 1B next season, or eventually move Judge to 1B.

The team is cheap because they refuse to keep their good players when they have them, instead of trading them for peanuts.

Yea. I'm still not sure that would have a title if simply kept all their players.


Maybe 08 or 09 if they kept Santana and hunter. Maybe.

I just think teams are more apt to make a couole moves at the deadline if they are in contention at that time. The Twins, had they kept Hunter, Santana, and even Ramos (whom I forgot earlier), would then have enough ammunition to win it all. Who knows though? The fact they haven't ponied up for an Ace since Santana is pathetic.

[flexbuffchest]

It's pretty simple to figure out how cheap the Twins have been.

In general, a team spending properly on players will put 51% of their revenue into their player payroll. According to https://www.statista.com/statistics/196 ... ince-2006/, the Twins made $261 million in revenue in 2017. Their 2017 payroll, according to Spotrac, was roughly $121 million. That's about 46% of revenue. They would have had to add about $12 million to hit 51%.

Spotrac lists the Twins' 2018 payroll as $115 million, or $6 million less than last year. Assuming about a $10 million bump in revenue, which is reasonable given recent trends in that area, let's call their 2018 revenue an even $270 million. That means they spent only about 42.5% of their revenue on payroll. Now, some of that dip is the result of trading a bunch of players due to sucking in the first half of the season. Their opening day payroll was roughly $128 million, according to this article. https://www.twincities.com/2018/03/28/ ... 4-million/. That number makes their payroll just north of 47% of their revenue. That would represent a small increase over last year, but would be roughly the same. Here's the last number of years, with all numbers being in millions:

2016 - $249/$97 = 39%
2015 - $240/$107 = 44%
2014 - $223/$87 = 39%
2013 - $221/$81 = 37%
2012 - $214/$109 = 51%
2011 - $213/$113 = 53%

So, since the team's last trip to the ALDS, they've had just 2 years where they spent up to 51% of revenue, and those seasons were 6 and 7 years ago. Now, I'm not a proponent of spending money just to spend it. I think that gets you in trouble. But, when your revenue numbers give you the ability to spend an extra $12 to $15 million on a team you hope can compete for a division title, you need to do that. That's two more good bullpen arms. That's another solid starting pitcher, or maybe an upgrade on one of the starting pitchers you signed for less than that. That's important money that the Twins are pocketing instead of putting on the field.

[The Replacements]

The Ortiz story is documented fiction. He was an ok player for the Twins. He couldn't hit lefties, had knee problems and was 27 years old. The Twins tried to trade him but found no takers. Ortiz signed a non-guaranteed free agent contract with the Red Sox that would be worth $1.25 million if he made the team. I believe Ortiz started using PED's because he was fearful of losing his career. I believe that played a big role in him staying healthy and reached HOF numbers. Would he have been the same player for the Twins? I don't think so.

Hogwash. I was but sixteen at the time, and I even knew it was a bad move.


He was an ok player but the power bat that we absolutely needed the next 3 or 4 years.

He was better than the stiffs we had at DH those years even before he allegedly started using peds. Just a bad and unnecessary move.

He always had 40 to 50 HR power.

If that was true, someone would have either traded for him or picked him up right away. He signed a non-guaranteed contract. His success was a surprise to everyone.

[whiskerbiscuit]

The Ortiz story is documented fiction. He was an ok player for the Twins. He couldn't hit lefties, had knee problems and was 27 years old. The Twins tried to trade him but found no takers. Ortiz signed a non-guaranteed free agent contract with the Red Sox that would be worth $1.25 million if he made the team. I believe Ortiz started using PED's because he was fearful of losing his career. I believe that played a big role in him staying healthy and reached HOF numbers. Would he have been the same player for the Twins? I don't think so.

Hogwash. I was but sixteen at the time, and I even knew it was a bad move.


He was an ok player but the power bat that we absolutely needed the next 3 or 4 years.

He was better than the stiffs we had at DH those years even before he allegedly started using peds. Just a bad and unnecessary move.

He always had 40 to 50 HR power.

If that was true, someone would have either traded for him or picked him up right away. He signed a non-guaranteed contract. His success was a surprise to everyone.

Without trying making this yet another Ortiz debate, that man always had irreplacable raw power, was one of our top prospects and was trending upwards. There was absolutely no reason to get rid of him. They were not going to have to break the bank for him, and they had nobody to replace what he brought.

Regardless of whether you think that was a mistake or not, the move itself almost certainly cost us a title and had little if anything to do with money.

[The Replacements]

Hogwash. I was but sixteen at the time, and I even knew it was a bad move.


He was an ok player but the power bat that we absolutely needed the next 3 or 4 years.

He was better than the stiffs we had at DH those years even before he allegedly started using peds. Just a bad and unnecessary move.

He always had 40 to 50 HR power.

If that was true, someone would have either traded for him or picked him up right away. He signed a non-guaranteed contract. His success was a surprise to everyone.

Without trying making this yet another Ortiz debate, that man always had irreplacable raw power, was one of our top prospects and was trending upwards. There was absolutely no reason to get rid of him. They were not going to have to break the bank for him, and they had nobody to replace what he brought.

Regardless of whether you think that was a mistake or not, the move itself almost certainly cost us a title and had little if anything to do with money.

You lost a lot of credibility with that statement. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.