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Do You Think the Draft Would Have Gone Differently Had Rick and Zim Not Been in the Last Year of Their Deals?

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Oriole81
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Re: Do You Think the Draft Would Have Gone Differently Had Rick and Zim Not Been in the Last Year of Their Deals?

Post by Oriole81 »

Good question.

I'd say probably not as I feel they probably would have been more aggressive trying to move up in an attempt to steal a couple more wins in 2020 if they were worried about their jobs.

*Moving up for Wirfs would have been a big immediate contributor, but it would have cost us dearly. A guy who really feels he's on the hot seat may even have dipped into our 2021 stash to pay for it.
*He didn't overpay to move up on Day2 for one of the DTs.
*He made trades to add picks in 2021, which a GM wouldn't necessarily do if they worried about being there next year.
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Re: Do You Think the Draft Would Have Gone Differently Had Rick and Zim Not Been in the Last Year of Their Deals?

Post by Ash Ketchum »

I agree with you guys.

Do you think, then, that Rick has some assurances from the Wilfs?

I hope so. Rick has done a great job, largely.
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Re: Do You Think the Draft Would Have Gone Differently Had Rick and Zim Not Been in the Last Year of Their Deals?

Post by Beef Supreme »

I am very surprised the draft went the way it did given the apparent lame duck status of both rick and mike.


It makes me speculate that they know extensions are in the works because this was clearly a draft with an eye on the future. Two picks traded for 2021 picks and a lot of trade-backs for developmental players and depth. Those are the kinds of moves that pay off down the road. I can only imagine that they have good reason to believe they’ll be around to see it.



So in other words, I don’t see how having long-term security would have changed anything, since this was also clearly a draft with long-term vision.
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Re: Do You Think the Draft Would Have Gone Differently Had Rick and Zim Not Been in the Last Year of Their Deals?

Post by RM22 »

Beef Supreme wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 3:01 pm I am very surprised the draft went the way it did given the apparent lame duck status of both rick and mike.


It makes me speculate that they know extensions are in the works because this was clearly a draft with an eye on the future. Two picks traded for 2021 picks and a lot of trade-backs for developmental players and depth. Those are the kinds of moves that pay off down the road. I can only imagine that they have good reason to believe they’ll be around to see it.



So in other words, I don’t see how having long-term security would have changed anything, since this was also clearly a draft with long-term vision.
Many more questions than answers. And a lot of what transpired with the draft is rather head scratching IMO.

Goes into the draft with 12 draft picks. Leaves the draft with 15 players drafted + two 2021 draft picks.

Losing Rhodes, Waynes, Alexander, Joseph and Griffen. But adding Piecre. How many compensation picks will the Vikings have for 2021? 3? 4?

That means 15 drafted players in 2020 and possibly another 15 players drafted in 2021.

Is Rick just throwing darts? Rick said he relies on his scouts for the later rounds. So does each scout get "their guy"? Zimmer's son got "his guy" in Dye.

Isn't it better to add one blue chip player than draft 4 players and hope 1 or 2 work out?
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Re: Do You Think the Draft Would Have Gone Differently Had Rick and Zim Not Been in the Last Year of Their Deals?

Post by Oriole81 »

RM22 wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 3:27 pm
Beef Supreme wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 3:01 pm I am very surprised the draft went the way it did given the apparent lame duck status of both rick and mike.


It makes me speculate that they know extensions are in the works because this was clearly a draft with an eye on the future. Two picks traded for 2021 picks and a lot of trade-backs for developmental players and depth. Those are the kinds of moves that pay off down the road. I can only imagine that they have good reason to believe they’ll be around to see it.



So in other words, I don’t see how having long-term security would have changed anything, since this was also clearly a draft with long-term vision.
Many more questions than answers. And a lot of what transpired with the draft is rather head scratching IMO.

Goes into the draft with 12 draft picks. Leaves the draft with 15 players drafted + two 2021 draft picks.

Losing Rhodes, Waynes, Alexander, Joseph and Griffen. But adding Piecre. How many compensation picks will the Vikings have for 2021? 3? 4?

That means 15 drafted players in 2020 and possibly another 15 players drafted in 2021.

Is Rick just throwing darts? Rick said he relies on his scouts for the later rounds. So does each scout get "their guy"? Zimmer's son got "his guy" in Dye.

Isn't it better to add one blue chip player than draft 4 players and hope 1 or 2 work out?
Not to mention another 11 draft picks, plus a few solid UDFAs leftover from last year's draft that haven't been written off yet.
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J Havlicek, M Ginobili, M Richmond
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T Duncan, B McAdoo
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Re: Do You Think the Draft Would Have Gone Differently Had Rick and Zim Not Been in the Last Year of Their Deals?

Post by EnLiteEndOne »

Couldn't the Wilf's told Rick he'd be fired asap if they believed he was mortgaging the future?
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Re: Do You Think the Draft Would Have Gone Differently Had Rick and Zim Not Been in the Last Year of Their Deals?

Post by RM22 »

EnLiteEndOne wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 4:08 pm Couldn't the Wilf's told Rick he'd be fired asap if they believed he was mortgaging the future?
This isn't how it works. For whatever reason, the Wilfs love Rick Spielman. They let him handle all the PR that they do not want. They think he is a great GM.
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Re: Do You Think the Draft Would Have Gone Differently Had Rick and Zim Not Been in the Last Year of Their Deals?

Post by Beef Supreme »

RM22 wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 3:27 pm
Beef Supreme wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 3:01 pm I am very surprised the draft went the way it did given the apparent lame duck status of both rick and mike.


It makes me speculate that they know extensions are in the works because this was clearly a draft with an eye on the future. Two picks traded for 2021 picks and a lot of trade-backs for developmental players and depth. Those are the kinds of moves that pay off down the road. I can only imagine that they have good reason to believe they’ll be around to see it.



So in other words, I don’t see how having long-term security would have changed anything, since this was also clearly a draft with long-term vision.
Many more questions than answers. And a lot of what transpired with the draft is rather head scratching IMO.

Goes into the draft with 12 draft picks. Leaves the draft with 15 players drafted + two 2021 draft picks.

Losing Rhodes, Waynes, Alexander, Joseph and Griffen. But adding Piecre. How many compensation picks will the Vikings have for 2021? 3? 4?

That means 15 drafted players in 2020 and possibly another 15 players drafted in 2021.

Is Rick just throwing darts? Rick said he relies on his scouts for the later rounds. So does each scout get "their guy"? Zimmer's son got "his guy" in Dye.

Isn't it better to add one blue chip player than draft 4 players and hope 1 or 2 work out?
I’m not enough of a math whiz to crunch the algorithm of the better draft strategy. Also, all drafts are not created equal, so you can’t always say which is a better strategy with any certainty. You have to do your best to come up with the best strategy given the state of your roster, salary cap, and the talent you feel is available in the draft that year.

But remember, there are no blue chip players in the draft, just blue chip prospects. Even they sometimes don’t work out. Sometimes they become “okay,” but not special players.

I mean, Jadeveon Clowney was supposed to revolutionize the DE position. Reggie Bush was supposed to be Ladanian Tomlinson-like. Both blue chip prospects. Neither set the nfl on fire.



But back on the Vikes, yeah... curious. Not what I expected. I figured there would be more aggression and moving up. Time will tell the wisdom of what they did. But given how many S.O.D.’s we got, it’ll probably work out :lol:


I do think it means they’re confident they’re getting extensions. If this is a true lame duck “prove it” season for them, then their draft strategy was even more curious.
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Re: Do You Think the Draft Would Have Gone Differently Had Rick and Zim Not Been in the Last Year of Their Deals?

Post by RM22 »

Beef Supreme wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 4:34 pm
RM22 wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 3:27 pm
Beef Supreme wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 3:01 pm I am very surprised the draft went the way it did given the apparent lame duck status of both rick and mike.


It makes me speculate that they know extensions are in the works because this was clearly a draft with an eye on the future. Two picks traded for 2021 picks and a lot of trade-backs for developmental players and depth. Those are the kinds of moves that pay off down the road. I can only imagine that they have good reason to believe they’ll be around to see it.



So in other words, I don’t see how having long-term security would have changed anything, since this was also clearly a draft with long-term vision.
Many more questions than answers. And a lot of what transpired with the draft is rather head scratching IMO.

Goes into the draft with 12 draft picks. Leaves the draft with 15 players drafted + two 2021 draft picks.

Losing Rhodes, Waynes, Alexander, Joseph and Griffen. But adding Piecre. How many compensation picks will the Vikings have for 2021? 3? 4?

That means 15 drafted players in 2020 and possibly another 15 players drafted in 2021.

Is Rick just throwing darts? Rick said he relies on his scouts for the later rounds. So does each scout get "their guy"? Zimmer's son got "his guy" in Dye.

Isn't it better to add one blue chip player than draft 4 players and hope 1 or 2 work out?
I’m not enough of a math whiz to crunch the algorithm of the better draft strategy. Also, all drafts are not created equal, so you can’t always say which is a better strategy with any certainty. You have to do your best to come up with the best strategy given the state of your roster, salary cap, and the talent you feel is available in the draft that year.

But remember, there are no blue chip players in the draft, just blue chip prospects. Even they sometimes don’t work out. Sometimes they become “okay,” but not special players.

I mean, Jadeveon Clowney was supposed to revolutionize the DE position. Reggie Bush was supposed to be Ladanian Tomlinson-like. Both blue chip prospects. Neither set the nfl on fire.



But back on the Vikes, yeah... curious. Not what I expected. I figured there would be more aggression and moving up. Time will tell the wisdom of what they did. But given how many S.O.D.’s we got, it’ll probably work out :lol:


I do think it means they’re confident they’re getting extensions. If this is a true lame duck “prove it” season for them, then their draft strategy was even more curious.
Great post.

It makes one wonder. Had Rick felt like he was on the hot seat, would he sacrifice the 2021 draft picks? But, what if Rick tried multiple times to trade up and was denied? This could be the answer to your draft strategy question.

I am 100% convinced Rick tried to trade up for Wirfs. His smoke screen was a WR. But if that were true, both Juedy and Lamb were available from 15-19.

With this said, it obviously changed the draft strategy and Rick went with Plan B in Jefferson.

Bigger question is. Had Rick been successful in his trade up, at what point would a WR be drafted? Doubtful it would be round 2, unless he traded back from 25. But I have to believe NO takes Jefferson at 24. Rick drafts Gladney at 25. With no 2nd round pick. But possibly a chance to move up early in round 3.
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Re: Do You Think the Draft Would Have Gone Differently Had Rick and Zim Not Been in the Last Year of Their Deals?

Post by Beef Supreme »

RM22 wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 5:38 pm
Beef Supreme wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 4:34 pm
RM22 wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 3:27 pm

Many more questions than answers. And a lot of what transpired with the draft is rather head scratching IMO.

Goes into the draft with 12 draft picks. Leaves the draft with 15 players drafted + two 2021 draft picks.

Losing Rhodes, Waynes, Alexander, Joseph and Griffen. But adding Piecre. How many compensation picks will the Vikings have for 2021? 3? 4?

That means 15 drafted players in 2020 and possibly another 15 players drafted in 2021.

Is Rick just throwing darts? Rick said he relies on his scouts for the later rounds. So does each scout get "their guy"? Zimmer's son got "his guy" in Dye.

Isn't it better to add one blue chip player than draft 4 players and hope 1 or 2 work out?
I’m not enough of a math whiz to crunch the algorithm of the better draft strategy. Also, all drafts are not created equal, so you can’t always say which is a better strategy with any certainty. You have to do your best to come up with the best strategy given the state of your roster, salary cap, and the talent you feel is available in the draft that year.

But remember, there are no blue chip players in the draft, just blue chip prospects. Even they sometimes don’t work out. Sometimes they become “okay,” but not special players.

I mean, Jadeveon Clowney was supposed to revolutionize the DE position. Reggie Bush was supposed to be Ladanian Tomlinson-like. Both blue chip prospects. Neither set the nfl on fire.



But back on the Vikes, yeah... curious. Not what I expected. I figured there would be more aggression and moving up. Time will tell the wisdom of what they did. But given how many S.O.D.’s we got, it’ll probably work out :lol:


I do think it means they’re confident they’re getting extensions. If this is a true lame duck “prove it” season for them, then their draft strategy was even more curious.
Great post.

It makes one wonder. Had Rick felt like he was on the hot seat, would he sacrifice the 2021 draft picks? But, what if Rick tried multiple times to trade up and was denied? This could be the answer to your draft strategy question.

I am 100% convinced Rick tried to trade up for Wirfs. His smoke screen was a WR. But if that were true, both Juedy and Lamb were available from 15-19.

With this said, it obviously changed the draft strategy and Rick went with Plan B in Jefferson.

Bigger question is. Had Rick been successful in his trade up, at what point would a WR be drafted? Doubtful it would be round 2, unless he traded back from 25. But I have to believe NO takes Jefferson at 24. Rick drafts Gladney at 25. With no 2nd round pick. But possibly a chance to move up early in round 3.
Hard to say. I guess he could have tried to move up land failed. There are reports that suggest exactly that. But that just means he wasn’t willing to pay the asking price. And given the ammo he had and the fact the he stockpiled rather than depleted the 2021 draft allotment, I think he could easily have done it. I think the calculus was Wirfs (assuming that was the target) < 2nd round tackle (turned out to be cleveland) + assets it would have taken to get Wirfs.

We'll see if that proves smart or not. But it’s almost sure that in 2020, Wirfs > Cleveland + assets, so his strategy was clearly long-term.

Same thing for later rumored trade attempts like Gallimore, etc. I’m sure if Rick offered future picks and stuff, he could have made that happen.

If I were in ricks shoes and thought I was fighting for my job, I’d be packaging picks to move up and get guys with the best chance to contribute right away. I’d be trading next years picks to make things happen, not stockpiling them by trading out of this years draft.

He’s either confident he’s got an extension in the bag, very loyal to the organization and willing to put the team’s long-term health above his career, or really stupid.
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Re: Do You Think the Draft Would Have Gone Differently Had Rick and Zim Not Been in the Last Year of Their Deals?

Post by Hector »

I thought Rick was safe for a while when they extended Cousin's.
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Re: Do You Think the Draft Would Have Gone Differently Had Rick and Zim Not Been in the Last Year of Their Deals?

Post by RubeTube »

Hector wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 11:23 pm I thought Rick was safe for a while when they extended Cousin's.
Kirk Daniel Cousins was one hell of a get.

Just think, boys... Going to have the same QB for probably over half a decade.

Dang it's nice. Carry on, GENTLEMEN.
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Re: Do You Think the Draft Would Have Gone Differently Had Rick and Zim Not Been in the Last Year of Their Deals?

Post by mancini199 »

I think their is some sort of assurances to Rick that he will be back...I hope both him and Zim are gone..Zim track record would say we miss the playoffs this year. Should be enough to get rid of a guy who thinks running the ball and playing defense is the way to go...Rick should be gone if for no other reason than hes been here long time and still haven't drafted a quality QB yet
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Re: Do You Think the Draft Would Have Gone Differently Had Rick and Zim Not Been in the Last Year of Their Deals?

Post by RubeTube »

mancini199 wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 6:49 am I think their is some sort of assurances to Rick that he will be back...I hope both him and Zim are gone..Zim track record would say we miss the playoffs this year. Should be enough to get rid of a guy who thinks running the ball and playing defense is the way to go...Rick should be gone if for no other reason than hes been here long time and still haven't drafted a quality QB yet
I'm with you. All this "Rick has done a wonderful job" where are the results?

One decade, two playoff wins, no back to back playoff seasons and around a .500 record.

I will say I do like him more than Zimmer. Zimmer is gone after a mediocre year imo. Far too behind the times.

One thing I will give Zimmer credit for is helping with the draft. Anyone notice how much better these drafts are since Zimmer got here? Spielmans drafts were pretty atrocious before he got here.

I mean in 2011 he took Ponder in the top 12. Year after that he took Kalil, two massive busts.

2013 he traded 4 picks for Patterson.

2014 he wanted to take Johnny football but Zimmer and Norv stepped it.
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Re: Do You Think the Draft Would Have Gone Differently Had Rick and Zim Not Been in the Last Year of Their Deals?

Post by Tommy_Hawk »

Ash Ketchum wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 2:14 pm Discuss?
Yes. Contract is another variable in the psyche of the men running the team. How much impact it had is hard to quantify. The team seems to be in a reload, at least Defensively, which I'm okay with. I dont know if you draft 16 players to set the table later if you aren't expecting positive results. Then again, that philosophy is also a variable for down the road when renewable time comes up. "Look, we have all these great, young, promising players coming up".
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Re: Do You Think the Draft Would Have Gone Differently Had Rick and Zim Not Been in the Last Year of Their Deals?

Post by witljon »

If Rick and Zim had just signed new deals, I wonder if they'd have stuck their neck out for Jordan Love. :thinking:
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Re: Do You Think the Draft Would Have Gone Differently Had Rick and Zim Not Been in the Last Year of Their Deals?

Post by Hector »

Sergeant Rubetube wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 11:44 pm
Hector wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 11:23 pm I thought Rick was safe for a while when they extended Cousin's.
Kirk Daniel Cousins was one hell of a get.

Just think, boys... Going to have the same QB for probably over half a decade.

Dang it's nice. Carry on, GENTLEMEN.
Haha...not close to what I think but carry on.
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Re: Do You Think the Draft Would Have Gone Differently Had Rick and Zim Not Been in the Last Year of Their Deals?

Post by Florida Guy »

I am under the belief (like many echoed above) that Rick for sure thinks he’s safe by the approach he took in the draft.

I am also under the belief that this roster can max out at 9-10 wins. Not bad but not great. Assuming there is still cap rollover in the new CBA, I would cut bait with a lot of people and really position yourself to be Uber aggressive next offseason. I get Reiff may be our best LT or LG (even though he hasn’t played it since early college years) but is he that much better that we shouldn’t free up $8m this year at $14m next year? With rollover that’s $22m of extra cap space next year.

I would get rid of Elf, Stephen, Reiff. And if you’re not gonna sign him long term, get rid of Harris. Again, that could be a 2nd/3rd and $11m to rollover to next year.
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Re: Do You Think the Draft Would Have Gone Differently Had Rick and Zim Not Been in the Last Year of Their Deals?

Post by RM22 »

Problem in. Because of COVID 19 and unless a cure is found, the salay cap is going to go down. So trading for anyone like Thuney and giving him a big contract, just will not happen.
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Re: Do You Think the Draft Would Have Gone Differently Had Rick and Zim Not Been in the Last Year of Their Deals?

Post by Butch Bradford »

Spielman’s not going anywhere. He is one of the best GM’s in the league, without question.

Zimmer is safe too. He has surrounded himself with great coaches (two former HCs) and staff. Although Zim needs to advance further in the playoffs with a Super Bowl victory being the end goal.
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Re: Do You Think the Draft Would Have Gone Differently Had Rick and Zim Not Been in the Last Year of Their Deals?

Post by Thrillkill »

mlhouse wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 2:32 pmNo.
100% correct.
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Re: Do You Think the Draft Would Have Gone Differently Had Rick and Zim Not Been in the Last Year of Their Deals?

Post by bombers3shooter »

Meh, this season should be all about getting into position to getA)Trevor Lawrence or B)Trey Lance
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Re: Do You Think the Draft Would Have Gone Differently Had Rick and Zim Not Been in the Last Year of Their Deals?

Post by Beef Supreme »

EnLiteEndOne wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 4:08 pm Couldn't the Wilf's told Rick he'd be fired asap if they believed he was mortgaging the future?
They could have. But they'd still have to pay him this year's salary. So it wouldn't help them.


And he could have still not traded picks this year for picks next year. He went beyond not mortgaging the future, he set up the future.
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Re: Do You Think the Draft Would Have Gone Differently Had Rick and Zim Not Been in the Last Year of Their Deals?

Post by bubu dubu. »

I feel Rick played the draft in a way that showed he has confidence he will still be here next year.

Not saying its right or wrong, just that he didn't do an all in on draft day that would make you think he was worried about his job.

I don't think Rick and Zim are tied at the hip. Obviously if Rick gets canned next year, that means Zim likely will be too. But I could see Zim getting the boot, and Spielman staying.
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Re: Do You Think the Draft Would Have Gone Differently Had Rick and Zim Not Been in the Last Year of Their Deals?

Post by RubeTube »

bombers3shooter wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 8:25 pm Meh, this season should be all about getting into position to getA)Trevor Lawrence or B)Trey Lance
Wouldn't even need a line with these two young bucks.

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Re: Do You Think the Draft Would Have Gone Differently Had Rick and Zim Not Been in the Last Year of Their Deals?

Post by Beef Supreme »

Sergeant Rubetube wrote: Sun May 10, 2020 12:20 am
bombers3shooter wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 8:25 pm Meh, this season should be all about getting into position to getA)Trevor Lawrence or B)Trey Lance
Wouldn't even need a line with these two young bucks.

Makin plays baby, makin plays.
I highly doubt we'll be bad enough to just draft one.

However, given that we have an extra 4th and 5th and probably at least one extra 3rd (Waynes) coming for compensatory picks (probably more), we can trade up if we need to and still have some picks to address other needs and round out the roster. Also, consider that we had two drafts worth of new players this year, so we are probably in a great position to be aggressive next year if we chose.

I mean, if we have a great year and pick 26th or something, forget it, but if we do go 8-8 like some predict and pick 17th, we could possibly package that, our 2nd, 3rd, and probably a 1 in 2022 to move up. That might get us there. And we'd still have the extra picks left over and all the guys we drafted this year.

Just speculatin'...





Also, you guys think Lance will go that high? I think he's got a lot to prove and I have no idea if there's going to be a college season or not.
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Re: Do You Think the Draft Would Have Gone Differently Had Rick and Zim Not Been in the Last Year of Their Deals?

Post by bubu dubu. »

bombers3shooter wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 8:25 pm Meh, this season should be all about getting into position to getA)Trevor Lawrence or B)Trey Lance
I've watched a few NDSU games, living in Fargo...Trey Lance can't throw a football, and gets nervous as hell when a weak ass FCS pass rush is coming in.

Watch his highlights. Basically every completion he gets, his man is wide open. This is the NDSU scheme. They run the shit out of the ball, then when they do pass, they take big shots down the field (also notice how most of his big passes come from PA), and the WR is always wide open. His running ability is very impressive though.

I might be wrong about him. Wentz has become a pretty decent NFL QB basically doing the same thing at NDSU (NDSU beats the shit out of you pounding the ball, then takes big shots downfield in the PA game), but Wentz always seemed to have more arm talent than Trey does.
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Re: Do You Think the Draft Would Have Gone Differently Had Rick and Zim Not Been in the Last Year of Their Deals?

Post by RubeTube »

bubu dubu. wrote: Sun May 10, 2020 12:52 am
bombers3shooter wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 8:25 pm Meh, this season should be all about getting into position to getA)Trevor Lawrence or B)Trey Lance
I've watched a few NDSU games, living in Fargo...Trey Lance can't throw a football, and gets nervous as hell when a weak ass FCS pass rush is coming in.

Watch his highlights. Basically every completion he gets, his man is wide open. This is the NDSU scheme. They run the shit out of the ball, then when they do pass, they take big shots down the field (also notice how most of his big passes come from PA), and the WR is always wide open. His running ability is very impressive though.

I might be wrong about him. Wentz has become a pretty decent NFL QB basically doing the same thing at NDSU (NDSU beats the shit out of you pounding the ball, then takes big shots downfield in the PA game), but Wentz always seemed to have more arm talent than Trey does.
No one is trading Lawrence but Lance has the "It" factor.

If this season proves a big failure, I have no problem laying all the chips in next years draft for him.

I love Kirk but unless something seriously changes around here, I don't see him back in a few years.

If they draft another QB, I want a whole new staff in place to work with him. Lance will need a young innovative mind. Not Zimstone and his run, run, pass short of the sticks, punt attitude.
“We are nonviolent with people who are nonviolent with us.”
— Malcolm X

The Puppet Master
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