Goodbye Vedvik

[RubeTube]

I'm surprised any team trusts Vedvik at their full time kicker right now.

He doesn't even look like has has the mechanics down.

His FGs here in the preseason were UGLY.

[Ash Ketchum]

"Groom Vedvik to be the kicker for next year."

Seriously asking, what does this even mean? If he isn't good enough to kick in football games this year, what good does it do to burn a roster spot on him this year, MUCH LESS actually give him the Punter job just because you want him to MAYBE kick next year?

The front office got too cute on this one.

Who gives a shit if the Bears wanted this guy? You spent a 5th rounder on a specialist that you had ZERO plan for.

The fact that a guy can kick AND punt is completely irrelevant unless he can do at least one of the jobs better than the guy you already have.

[hategreenticemase]

"Groom Vedvik to be the kicker for next year."

Seriously asking, what does this even mean? If he isn't good enough to kick in football games this year, what good does it do to burn a roster spot on him this year, MUCH LESS actually give him the Punter job just because you want him to MAYBE kick next year?

The front office got too cute on this one.

Who gives a shit if the Bears wanted this guy? You spent a 5th rounder on a specialist that you had ZERO plan for.

The fact that a guy can kick AND punt is completely irrelevant unless he can do at least one of the jobs better than the guy you already have.

Serious question, are you seriously asking what "grooming him to be a K in a year"? You seriously can't figure that out? Good God.

[hategreenticemase]

I'm surprised any team trusts Vedvik at their full time kicker right now.

I would agree.

Here is the point and it's actually really simple. Trading for K isn't that common, and most assuredly trading a 5th for one is rare. So, we paid a premium to get him. Why? Again, that's simple. The guy has a high ceiling and he was highly coveted. Numerous teams in on bidding and cost to get him rose.

I state these fairly obvious "facts" for a reason. To establish that two weeks ago this guy was highly valued, period. Not just by our squad but by several.

To then give up on that valued asset when you simply didn't have to, is absurd. If wile was as much better at punting than V as Bailey was better at kicking than V, then maybe a case can be made for cutting him. Cutting him because of a slight edge and then subsequently cutting that guy too,.they look moronic. Period.

Maybe what should be also discussed here is this organization has had 3 promising young K who turned dogshit in short time frames here. Maybe it wasnt just Prieffer. It's fucking baffling.

[Ash Ketchum]

"Groom Vedvik to be the kicker for next year."

Seriously asking, what does this even mean? If he isn't good enough to kick in football games this year, what good does it do to burn a roster spot on him this year, MUCH LESS actually give him the Punter job just because you want him to MAYBE kick next year?

The front office got too cute on this one.

Who gives a shit if the Bears wanted this guy? You spent a 5th rounder on a specialist that you had ZERO plan for.

The fact that a guy can kick AND punt is completely irrelevant unless he can do at least one of the jobs better than the guy you already have.

Serious question, are you seriously asking what "grooming him to be a K in a year"? You seriously can't figure that out? Good God.

My point is that grooming kickers for the future doesn’t happen and it doesn’t need to happen.

If the guy can’t kick field goals what does he offer in the future that makes him worth waiting for?

It wasn’t that they traded for Vedvik. It was that they did it without a plan.

From the outside it looks like they either placed added value on Vedvik because he was capable as a kicker and a punter or got scared by the reports of multiple teams being interested or both.

The fact that Vedvik can punt and kick is irrelevant because it ended up being that he wasn’t better than Bailey at kicking and wasn’t better than Wile at punting in their eyes.

Whatever is going on in that building regarding the kicking game is baffling, like you said. That we agree on.

The best theory I can come up with is that the struggles in the kicking game have taken on a life of their own since Blair Walsh years ago, and organizationally it’s just constantly in everyone’s minds.

[hategreenticemase]

"Groom Vedvik to be the kicker for next year."

Seriously asking, what does this even mean? If he isn't good enough to kick in football games this year, what good does it do to burn a roster spot on him this year, MUCH LESS actually give him the Punter job just because you want him to MAYBE kick next year?

The front office got too cute on this one.

Who gives a shit if the Bears wanted this guy? You spent a 5th rounder on a specialist that you had ZERO plan for.

The fact that a guy can kick AND punt is completely irrelevant unless he can do at least one of the jobs better than the guy you already have.

Serious question, are you seriously asking what "grooming him to be a K in a year"? You seriously can't figure that out? Good God.

My point is that grooming kickers for the future doesn’t happen and it doesn’t need to happen.

If the guy can’t kick field goals what does he offer in the future that makes him worth waiting for?

It wasn’t that they traded for Vedvik. It was that they did it without a plan.

From the outside it looks like they either placed added value on Vedvik because he was capable as a kicker and a punter or got scared by the reports of multiple teams being interested or both.

The fact that Vedvik can punt and kick is irrelevant because it ended up being that he wasn’t better than Bailey at kicking and wasn’t better than Wile at punting in their eyes.

Whatever is going on in that building regarding the kicking game is baffling, like you said. That we agree on.

The best theory I can come up with is that the struggles in the kicking game have taken on a life of their own since Blair Walsh years ago, and organizationally it’s just constantly in everyone’s minds.

Honestly reread your first paragraph and ask yourself if perhaps you are being a little myopic. Meaning, while it may be mostly true, it doesn't mean it HAS to be true either. Think outside the box. Stay with me on this and I think you will change your mind and see the logic, as typically you are very reasonable.

Here is the point. I think you can agree this guy has big upside. Our premium we paid, the rumors of MANY teams being in on bidding, and the buzz around him all support that. This doesn't mean he is an all pro in 3 years, it just means a lot of smart people feel he has a chance to be damn good. This is the HUGE key here. Yes, he flopped kicking here initially. He isn't our best K now, not even close. However, he didn't magically go from future potential really good K to sucks overnight. This is the part that simply matters the most in my view.

The guy can functionally punt. He was NOT destroyed in the punting competition here and actually didn't get much time there. Ok, next fact - we have this supposed new guru for ST. Supposedly a guy good at honing technique, enhancing it etc. I would also bet money he had a big say in wanting to get him (guessing). With time, it's reasonable if not probable, he can make him closer to his ceiling, you know, the ceiling everyone likes so much. Lastly, the "big leg" aspect - especially with a K getting older and who doesn't have a huge leg - means you can slowly possibly extract some value on long fg attempts and KO in addition to punting.

Dude, I get it's non traditional, but so is trading a fucking 5th for a K. And here is the other nontraditional part you are forgetting that makes keeping him SO much easier - it's very nontraditional for a guy who can do both jobs. So now you can "burn" a roster spot on him grooming him for the more critical position because the way you are burning a roster spot is having him punt so in essence you aren't burning a spot at all.

Isn't that a no fucking brainer?

[B-Town]

Serious question, are you seriously asking what "grooming him to be a K in a year"? You seriously can't figure that out? Good God.

My point is that grooming kickers for the future doesn’t happen and it doesn’t need to happen.

If the guy can’t kick field goals what does he offer in the future that makes him worth waiting for?

It wasn’t that they traded for Vedvik. It was that they did it without a plan.

From the outside it looks like they either placed added value on Vedvik because he was capable as a kicker and a punter or got scared by the reports of multiple teams being interested or both.

The fact that Vedvik can punt and kick is irrelevant because it ended up being that he wasn’t better than Bailey at kicking and wasn’t better than Wile at punting in their eyes.

Whatever is going on in that building regarding the kicking game is baffling, like you said. That we agree on.

The best theory I can come up with is that the struggles in the kicking game have taken on a life of their own since Blair Walsh years ago, and organizationally it’s just constantly in everyone’s minds.

Honestly reread your first paragraph and ask yourself if perhaps you are being a little myopic. Meaning, while it may be mostly true, it doesn't mean it HAS to be true either. Think outside the box. Stay with me on this and I think you will change your mind and see the logic, as typically you are very reasonable.

Here is the point. I think you can agree this guy has big upside. Our premium we paid, the rumors of MANY teams being in on bidding, and the buzz around him all support that. This doesn't mean he is an all pro in 3 years, it just means a lot of smart people feel he has a chance to be damn good. This is the HUGE key here. Yes, he flopped kicking here initially. He isn't our best K now, not even close. However, he didn't magically go from future potential really good K to sucks overnight. This is the part that simply matters the most in my view.

The guy can functionally punt. He was NOT destroyed in punting and actually didn't get much time there. We have this supposed new guru for ST. I'm quite sure he had a big say in wanting to get him (guessing). Additionally, the "big leg" aspect - especially with a K getting older and not a huge leg - means you can slowly possibly extract some value on long fg attempts and KO.

Dude, I get it's non traditional, but so is trading a fucking 5th for a K and so is a guy who can do both jobs, meaning, you can "burn" a roster spot on him grooming him for the more critical position because in interim you can let him functionally perform the lesser critical position. Isn't that a no fucking brainer?

You're way overthinking this. The Vikings aren't going to keep 3 guys on roster to kick the ball. Vedvik was worse than each of the guys he was brought in to potentially replace. So why keep him and downgrade a position? Because you've decided that, eventually, he could become a good kicker? When was the last time that an NFL team drafted or rostered a kicker based on his potential, down the line, to be able to play the position?

Simply put, Vedvik lost the competition at both spots. It's time for the team to cut their losses and move on.

[hategreenticemase]

My point is that grooming kickers for the future doesn’t happen and it doesn’t need to happen.

If the guy can’t kick field goals what does he offer in the future that makes him worth waiting for?

It wasn’t that they traded for Vedvik. It was that they did it without a plan.

From the outside it looks like they either placed added value on Vedvik because he was capable as a kicker and a punter or got scared by the reports of multiple teams being interested or both.

The fact that Vedvik can punt and kick is irrelevant because it ended up being that he wasn’t better than Bailey at kicking and wasn’t better than Wile at punting in their eyes.

Whatever is going on in that building regarding the kicking game is baffling, like you said. That we agree on.

The best theory I can come up with is that the struggles in the kicking game have taken on a life of their own since Blair Walsh years ago, and organizationally it’s just constantly in everyone’s minds.

Honestly reread your first paragraph and ask yourself if perhaps you are being a little myopic. Meaning, while it may be mostly true, it doesn't mean it HAS to be true either. Think outside the box. Stay with me on this and I think you will change your mind and see the logic, as typically you are very reasonable.

Here is the point. I think you can agree this guy has big upside. Our premium we paid, the rumors of MANY teams being in on bidding, and the buzz around him all support that. This doesn't mean he is an all pro in 3 years, it just means a lot of smart people feel he has a chance to be damn good. This is the HUGE key here. Yes, he flopped kicking here initially. He isn't our best K now, not even close. However, he didn't magically go from future potential really good K to sucks overnight. This is the part that simply matters the most in my view.

The guy can functionally punt. He was NOT destroyed in punting and actually didn't get much time there. We have this supposed new guru for ST. I'm quite sure he had a big say in wanting to get him (guessing). Additionally, the "big leg" aspect - especially with a K getting older and not a huge leg - means you can slowly possibly extract some value on long fg attempts and KO.

Dude, I get it's non traditional, but so is trading a fucking 5th for a K and so is a guy who can do both jobs, meaning, you can "burn" a roster spot on him grooming him for the more critical position because in interim you can let him functionally perform the lesser critical position. Isn't that a no fucking brainer?

You're way overthinking this. The Vikings aren't going to keep 3 guys on roster to kick the ball. Vedvik was worse than each of the guys he was brought in to potentially replace. So why keep him and downgrade a position? Because you've decided that, eventually, he could become a good kicker? When was the last time that an NFL team drafted or rostered a kicker based on his potential, down the line, to be able to play the position?

Simply put, Vedvik lost the competition at both spots. It's time for the team to cut their losses and move on.

Yeah, big downgrade from Matt fucking Wile. Oh wait, we cut him too.

[Oriole81]

Cinci drafted Jake Elliott but he couldn’t beat out Randy Bullock so Cinci cut him and wanted to get him to PS. Philly claimed him, he went on to become a big contributor to their SB run.

Car drafted Harrison Butker but he didn’t beat out Graham Gano, so they practice squaded him. A few weeks later KC picks him up and he instantly becomes one of the best kickers in the league.

I wonder if they went back in time if they would have considered carrying an extra young kicker.

[B-Town]

Honestly reread your first paragraph and ask yourself if perhaps you are being a little myopic. Meaning, while it may be mostly true, it doesn't mean it HAS to be true either. Think outside the box. Stay with me on this and I think you will change your mind and see the logic, as typically you are very reasonable.

Here is the point. I think you can agree this guy has big upside. Our premium we paid, the rumors of MANY teams being in on bidding, and the buzz around him all support that. This doesn't mean he is an all pro in 3 years, it just means a lot of smart people feel he has a chance to be damn good. This is the HUGE key here. Yes, he flopped kicking here initially. He isn't our best K now, not even close. However, he didn't magically go from future potential really good K to sucks overnight. This is the part that simply matters the most in my view.

The guy can functionally punt. He was NOT destroyed in punting and actually didn't get much time there. We have this supposed new guru for ST. I'm quite sure he had a big say in wanting to get him (guessing). Additionally, the "big leg" aspect - especially with a K getting older and not a huge leg - means you can slowly possibly extract some value on long fg attempts and KO.

Dude, I get it's non traditional, but so is trading a fucking 5th for a K and so is a guy who can do both jobs, meaning, you can "burn" a roster spot on him grooming him for the more critical position because in interim you can let him functionally perform the lesser critical position. Isn't that a no fucking brainer?

You're way overthinking this. The Vikings aren't going to keep 3 guys on roster to kick the ball. Vedvik was worse than each of the guys he was brought in to potentially replace. So why keep him and downgrade a position? Because you've decided that, eventually, he could become a good kicker? When was the last time that an NFL team drafted or rostered a kicker based on his potential, down the line, to be able to play the position?

Simply put, Vedvik lost the competition at both spots. It's time for the team to cut their losses and move on.

Yeah, big downgrade from Matt fucking Wile. Oh wait, we cut him too.

You're proving the point even more. Vedvik was so bad at punting that he got beat out by a guy that we dumped on roster cut day. I'm sure you won't let that sink in and follow a path of logic back to reality, but it's worth saying anyway.

[hategreenticemase]

You're way overthinking this. The Vikings aren't going to keep 3 guys on roster to kick the ball. Vedvik was worse than each of the guys he was brought in to potentially replace. So why keep him and downgrade a position? Because you've decided that, eventually, he could become a good kicker? When was the last time that an NFL team drafted or rostered a kicker based on his potential, down the line, to be able to play the position?

Simply put, Vedvik lost the competition at both spots. It's time for the team to cut their losses and move on.

Yeah, big downgrade from Matt fucking Wile. Oh wait, we cut him too.

You're proving the point even more. Vedvik was so bad at punting that he got beat out by a guy that we dumped on roster cut day. I'm sure you won't let that sink in and follow a path of logic back to reality, but it's worth saying anyway.

Yeah, he was terrible. Give me a break, he was barely given a chance.

[Ash Ketchum]

Cinci drafted Jake Elliott but he couldn’t beat out Randy Bullock so Cinci cut him and wanted to get him to PS. Philly claimed him, he went on to become a big contributor to their SB run.

Car drafted Harrison Butker but he didn’t beat out Graham Gano, so they practice squaded him. A few weeks later KC picks him up and he instantly becomes one of the best kickers in the league.

I wonder if they went back in time if they would have considered carrying an extra young kicker.

Yeah, but what does that tell you?

Young kickers can be found on other teams' practice squads and on the street at virtually anytime nowadays. The rigors these NFL-caliber kickers go through in the modern age is insane, and you've seen COUNTLESS examples of how sometimes missed field goals aren't because the kicker isn't good enough.

My point is that if Vedvik didn't win the kicking job, why would you feel the need to stash them for later?

Jake Elliott's FG% is worst than Kai Forbath and he's missed 5 XPs, and we ran Forbath out of town for some reason.

[Ash Ketchum]

Serious question, are you seriously asking what "grooming him to be a K in a year"? You seriously can't figure that out? Good God.

My point is that grooming kickers for the future doesn’t happen and it doesn’t need to happen.

If the guy can’t kick field goals what does he offer in the future that makes him worth waiting for?

It wasn’t that they traded for Vedvik. It was that they did it without a plan.

From the outside it looks like they either placed added value on Vedvik because he was capable as a kicker and a punter or got scared by the reports of multiple teams being interested or both.

The fact that Vedvik can punt and kick is irrelevant because it ended up being that he wasn’t better than Bailey at kicking and wasn’t better than Wile at punting in their eyes.

Whatever is going on in that building regarding the kicking game is baffling, like you said. That we agree on.

The best theory I can come up with is that the struggles in the kicking game have taken on a life of their own since Blair Walsh years ago, and organizationally it’s just constantly in everyone’s minds.

Honestly reread your first paragraph and ask yourself if perhaps you are being a little myopic. Meaning, while it may be mostly true, it doesn't mean it HAS to be true either. Think outside the box. Stay with me on this and I think you will change your mind and see the logic, as typically you are very reasonable.

Here is the point. I think you can agree this guy has big upside. Our premium we paid, the rumors of MANY teams being in on bidding, and the buzz around him all support that. This doesn't mean he is an all pro in 3 years, it just means a lot of smart people feel he has a chance to be damn good. This is the HUGE key here. Yes, he flopped kicking here initially. He isn't our best K now, not even close. However, he didn't magically go from future potential really good K to sucks overnight. This is the part that simply matters the most in my view.

The guy can functionally punt. He was NOT destroyed in the punting competition here and actually didn't get much time there. Ok, next fact - we have this supposed new guru for ST. Supposedly a guy good at honing technique, enhancing it etc. I would also bet money he had a big say in wanting to get him (guessing). With time, it's reasonable if not probable, he can make him closer to his ceiling, you know, the ceiling everyone likes so much. Lastly, the "big leg" aspect - especially with a K getting older and who doesn't have a huge leg - means you can slowly possibly extract some value on long fg attempts and KO in addition to punting.

Dude, I get it's non traditional, but so is trading a fucking 5th for a K. And here is the other nontraditional part you are forgetting that makes keeping him SO much easier - it's very nontraditional for a guy who can do both jobs. So now you can "burn" a roster spot on him grooming him for the more critical position because the way you are burning a roster spot is having him punt so in essence you aren't burning a spot at all.

Isn't that a no fucking brainer?

1. If Vedvik couldn't win the job over Bailey this year, what special qualities does he possess that make him so important to stash for the future? His big leg? Who cares about that? NFL coaches don't attempt 60 yard FGs on the regular for fear of missing and giving the team a short field, and it's rare to see a kicker in the modern age who isn't capable of hitting from 50-55 yards.

1a. This goes for Vedvik as a punter as well. I've heard people say he should get the punting job this year in part because then he's on the team in case he magically becomes good at kicking by next season. Again, what's so special about Vedvik where we'd tolerate him being poor this season in hopes that he'll be better in future seasons? This isn't a skill position where you want to stash a supremely athletic player in hopes that he develops other parts of his game to become a complete player. If Vedvik is the full time punter, when is he going to develop as a kicker? If he's spending time developing as a kicker, his punting will suffer. Who holds while Vedvik works on kicking?

2. The fact that the Vikings gave up a 5th round draft pick is irrelevant in deciding whether or not Vedvik SHOULD be on this team. I actually give the Vikings a shred of credit for not being stubborn and handing Vedvik the kicking job when he didn't deserve it just to save face from the trade.

3. The bit about the special teams coordinator honing kickers' technique is something I disagree with. Fans would be surprised at how little the special teams coordinators actually work with the specialists in that way. When you become an NFL specialist (kicker, punter, snapper), you're essentially just a hired gun. You're expected to be good at your job and if not, you'll be replaced. This is especially evident under this Zimmer administration. Kickers aren't real players in their eyes from the standpoint of investing a lot of time and effort into refining their technique. 99% of NFL kickers have gone through years and years of specialized training under the guidance of private parties outside of their teams from high school on. NFL ST coordinators spend 90% of their job coordinating personnel and schemes of the return and coverage units.

4. The fact that Vedvik has a big leg for kickoffs is almost irrelevant in today's game, and might become completely obsolete in the coming years if they decide to just eliminate kickoffs. Almost all of the starting kickers currently in the NFL could kick the ball directly out of the endzone whenever they want under the new placement on kickoffs.

[Oriole81]

Cinci drafted Jake Elliott but he couldn’t beat out Randy Bullock so Cinci cut him and wanted to get him to PS. Philly claimed him, he went on to become a big contributor to their SB run.

Car drafted Harrison Butker but he didn’t beat out Graham Gano, so they practice squaded him. A few weeks later KC picks him up and he instantly becomes one of the best kickers in the league.

I wonder if they went back in time if they would have considered carrying an extra young kicker.

Yeah, but what does that tell you?

Young kickers can be found on other teams' practice squads and on the street at virtually anytime nowadays. The rigors these NFL-caliber kickers go through in the modern age is insane, and you've seen COUNTLESS examples of how sometimes missed field goals aren't because the kicker isn't good enough.

My point is that if Vedvik didn't win the kicking job, why would you feel the need to stash them for later?

Jake Elliott's FG% is worst than Kai Forbath and he's missed 5 XPs, and we ran Forbath out of town for some reason.

I suppose you could use that to show that a team doesn't have to invest draft capital into finding a long term kicker, but considering we're a team that feels the need to try and draft the best legs possible (not arguing whether that's right or wrong) it does seem counterproductive to give up so quickly.

Carlson was apparently fixed by his own personal kicking coach, doing one small tweak to his approach. Now Oak has a potential pro bowl kicker for the next decade for free, because we didn't have the foresight to keep him around for a couple more weeks (while still bringing in Bailey) and try to figure out what is going on. We didn't even practice squad him, we just flat out gave up.

I think there's more going on with Vedvik, and we COULD HAVE AFFORDED to keep him around on the active roster still for a few weeks to try and see if we could figure out. You said so yourself above, that sometimes missed field goals aren't because the kicker isn't good enough. It very well could have been Wile as a holder that was the problem. We all know he's a bad holder, so why couldn't it be possible that a guy who seemed to be so fluid in Balt could just come in and unravel so quickly because of a comple outside influence? You could have had him stick around for a few weeks and see if Colquitt would have made a difference, which early reports say he already is with Bailey.

I'm not trying to argue the merits of whether a team should use draft capital on kickers, but if you decide your a team that is going to, then it's worth your time to take a long term approach and force your coaches to put him in the best situation to succeed. A 2 week shotgun audition with a lousy holder is not doing that.

[hategreenticemase]

My point is that grooming kickers for the future doesn’t happen and it doesn’t need to happen.

If the guy can’t kick field goals what does he offer in the future that makes him worth waiting for?

It wasn’t that they traded for Vedvik. It was that they did it without a plan.

From the outside it looks like they either placed added value on Vedvik because he was capable as a kicker and a punter or got scared by the reports of multiple teams being interested or both.

The fact that Vedvik can punt and kick is irrelevant because it ended up being that he wasn’t better than Bailey at kicking and wasn’t better than Wile at punting in their eyes.

Whatever is going on in that building regarding the kicking game is baffling, like you said. That we agree on.

The best theory I can come up with is that the struggles in the kicking game have taken on a life of their own since Blair Walsh years ago, and organizationally it’s just constantly in everyone’s minds.

Honestly reread your first paragraph and ask yourself if perhaps you are being a little myopic. Meaning, while it may be mostly true, it doesn't mean it HAS to be true either. Think outside the box. Stay with me on this and I think you will change your mind and see the logic, as typically you are very reasonable.

Here is the point. I think you can agree this guy has big upside. Our premium we paid, the rumors of MANY teams being in on bidding, and the buzz around him all support that. This doesn't mean he is an all pro in 3 years, it just means a lot of smart people feel he has a chance to be damn good. This is the HUGE key here. Yes, he flopped kicking here initially. He isn't our best K now, not even close. However, he didn't magically go from future potential really good K to sucks overnight. This is the part that simply matters the most in my view.

The guy can functionally punt. He was NOT destroyed in the punting competition here and actually didn't get much time there. Ok, next fact - we have this supposed new guru for ST. Supposedly a guy good at honing technique, enhancing it etc. I would also bet money he had a big say in wanting to get him (guessing). With time, it's reasonable if not probable, he can make him closer to his ceiling, you know, the ceiling everyone likes so much. Lastly, the "big leg" aspect - especially with a K getting older and who doesn't have a huge leg - means you can slowly possibly extract some value on long fg attempts and KO in addition to punting.

Dude, I get it's non traditional, but so is trading a fucking 5th for a K. And here is the other nontraditional part you are forgetting that makes keeping him SO much easier - it's very nontraditional for a guy who can do both jobs. So now you can "burn" a roster spot on him grooming him for the more critical position because the way you are burning a roster spot is having him punt so in essence you aren't burning a spot at all.

Isn't that a no fucking brainer?

1. If Vedvik couldn't win the job over Bailey this year, what special qualities does he possess that make him so important to stash for the future? His big leg? Who cares about that? NFL coaches don't attempt 60 yard FGs on the regular for fear of missing and giving the team a short field, and it's rare to see a kicker in the modern age who isn't capable of hitting from 50-55 yards.

1a. This goes for Vedvik as a punter as well. I've heard people say he should get the punting job this year in part because then he's on the team in case he magically becomes good at kicking by next season. Again, what's so special about Vedvik where we'd tolerate him being poor this season in hopes that he'll be better in future seasons? This isn't a skill position where you want to stash a supremely athletic player in hopes that he develops other parts of his game to become a complete player. If Vedvik is the full time punter, when is he going to develop as a kicker? If he's spending time developing as a kicker, his punting will suffer. Who holds while Vedvik works on kicking?

2. The fact that the Vikings gave up a 5th round draft pick is irrelevant in deciding whether or not Vedvik SHOULD be on this team. I actually give the Vikings a shred of credit for not being stubborn and handing Vedvik the kicking job when he didn't deserve it just to save face from the trade.

3. The bit about the special teams coordinator honing kickers' technique is something I disagree with. Fans would be surprised at how little the special teams coordinators actually work with the specialists in that way. When you become an NFL specialist (kicker, punter, snapper), you're essentially just a hired gun. You're expected to be good at your job and if not, you'll be replaced. This is especially evident under this Zimmer administration. Kickers aren't real players in their eyes from the standpoint of investing a lot of time and effort into refining their technique. 99% of NFL kickers have gone through years and years of specialized training under the guidance of private parties outside of their teams from high school on. NFL ST coordinators spend 90% of their job coordinating personnel and schemes of the return and coverage units.

4. The fact that Vedvik has a big leg for kickoffs is almost irrelevant in today's game, and might become completely obsolete in the coming years if they decide to just eliminate kickoffs. Almost all of the starting kickers currently in the NFL could kick the ball directly out of the endzone whenever they want under the new placement on kickoffs.

Not trying to be funny, but I stopped reading after point #1. If you are that damn stubborn to just pretend that he does not have big upside in spite of the fact that is bore out not only by the price we paid but the DOCUMENTED number of teams clamoring for him, and the buzz about him, then there simply is no reason to discuss it any longer.

Yep, he is just a guy we dramatically overpaid for (which no one can figure out why we did that since, you know, he is just a guy with a little bit of a big leg"), but then we got him here but then it turns out he sucks. Got it. Jesus Christ, I give up. Agree to disagree and move on.

PS You have been babbling about ST coaches do very little with technique forever here. I find that extremely hard to believe and very likely to be nonsense.

[Ash Ketchum]

Cinci drafted Jake Elliott but he couldn’t beat out Randy Bullock so Cinci cut him and wanted to get him to PS. Philly claimed him, he went on to become a big contributor to their SB run.

Car drafted Harrison Butker but he didn’t beat out Graham Gano, so they practice squaded him. A few weeks later KC picks him up and he instantly becomes one of the best kickers in the league.

I wonder if they went back in time if they would have considered carrying an extra young kicker.

Yeah, but what does that tell you?

Young kickers can be found on other teams' practice squads and on the street at virtually anytime nowadays. The rigors these NFL-caliber kickers go through in the modern age is insane, and you've seen COUNTLESS examples of how sometimes missed field goals aren't because the kicker isn't good enough.

My point is that if Vedvik didn't win the kicking job, why would you feel the need to stash them for later?

Jake Elliott's FG% is worst than Kai Forbath and he's missed 5 XPs, and we ran Forbath out of town for some reason.

I suppose you could use that to show that a team doesn't have to invest draft capital into finding a long term kicker, but considering we're a team that feels the need to try and draft the best legs possible (not arguing whether that's right or wrong) it does seem counterproductive to give up so quickly.

Carlson was apparently fixed by his own personal kicking coach, doing one small tweak to his approach. Now Oak has a potential pro bowl kicker for the next decade for free, because we didn't have the foresight to keep him around for a couple more weeks (while still bringing in Bailey) and try to figure out what is going on. We didn't even practice squad him, we just flat out gave up.

I think there's more going on with Vedvik, and we COULD HAVE AFFORDED to keep him around on the active roster still for a few weeks to try and see if we could figure out. You said so yourself above, that sometimes missed field goals aren't because the kicker isn't good enough. It very well could have been Wile as a holder that was the problem. We all know he's a bad holder, so why couldn't it be possible that a guy who seemed to be so fluid in Balt could just come in and unravel so quickly? You could have had him stick around for a few weeks and see if Colquitt would have made a difference, which early reports say he already is with Bailey.

I'm not trying to argue the merits of whether a team should use draft capital on kickers, but if you decide your a team that is going to, then it's worth your time to take a long term approach and force your coaches to put him in the best situation to succeed. A 2 week shotgun audition with a lousy holder is not doing that.

Fair take.

I'd completely agree if we were talking about an athletic LB or a fast WR who just needed a bit of refinement and experience before his athletic ability can truly be unleashed on the field. For guys like that, you can live with the mistakes because you know the upside could be worth it eventually.

With a kicker, there aren't varying degrees of being good or bad, there's no "promise" or "potential."

Maybe Wile as the holder was the problem. That very well could be. But since the change wasn't made there, I have to assume they felt it wasn't. I'm not arguing for or against that. And I'm not even saying Vedvik was at all at fault.

I'm simply arguing against the notion of keeping a kicker on the roster this year with the idea that you're stashing him for the future.

The fact that he has a big leg doesn't matter to me because this isn't 1995 where a kicker hitting from 55 is something only a few people can do. There are unemployed kickers all over the place that can hit from 60 yards but haven't been the most accurate, which is exactly what Vedvik is right now.

Why not just sign one of those guys if/when Bailey isn't the answer rather than investing longterm unnecessarily in Vedvik?

[DonaldDouchebag]

What a disaster.

[Oriole81]

Yeah, but what does that tell you?

Young kickers can be found on other teams' practice squads and on the street at virtually anytime nowadays. The rigors these NFL-caliber kickers go through in the modern age is insane, and you've seen COUNTLESS examples of how sometimes missed field goals aren't because the kicker isn't good enough.

My point is that if Vedvik didn't win the kicking job, why would you feel the need to stash them for later?

Jake Elliott's FG% is worst than Kai Forbath and he's missed 5 XPs, and we ran Forbath out of town for some reason.

I suppose you could use that to show that a team doesn't have to invest draft capital into finding a long term kicker, but considering we're a team that feels the need to try and draft the best legs possible (not arguing whether that's right or wrong) it does seem counterproductive to give up so quickly.

Carlson was apparently fixed by his own personal kicking coach, doing one small tweak to his approach. Now Oak has a potential pro bowl kicker for the next decade for free, because we didn't have the foresight to keep him around for a couple more weeks (while still bringing in Bailey) and try to figure out what is going on. We didn't even practice squad him, we just flat out gave up.

I think there's more going on with Vedvik, and we COULD HAVE AFFORDED to keep him around on the active roster still for a few weeks to try and see if we could figure out. You said so yourself above, that sometimes missed field goals aren't because the kicker isn't good enough. It very well could have been Wile as a holder that was the problem. We all know he's a bad holder, so why couldn't it be possible that a guy who seemed to be so fluid in Balt could just come in and unravel so quickly? You could have had him stick around for a few weeks and see if Colquitt would have made a difference, which early reports say he already is with Bailey.

I'm not trying to argue the merits of whether a team should use draft capital on kickers, but if you decide your a team that is going to, then it's worth your time to take a long term approach and force your coaches to put him in the best situation to succeed. A 2 week shotgun audition with a lousy holder is not doing that.

Fair take.

I'd completely agree if we were talking about an athletic LB or a fast WR who just needed a bit of refinement and experience before his athletic ability can truly be unleashed on the field. For guys like that, you can live with the mistakes because you know the upside could be worth it eventually.

With a kicker, there aren't varying degrees of being good or bad, there's no "promise" or "potential."

Maybe Wile as the holder was the problem. That very well could be. But since the change wasn't made there, I have to assume they felt it wasn't. I'm not arguing for or against that. And I'm not even saying Vedvik was at all at fault.

I'm simply arguing against the notion of keeping a kicker on the roster this year with the idea that you're stashing him for the future.

The fact that he has a big leg doesn't matter to me because this isn't 1995 where a kicker hitting from 55 is something only a few people can do. There are unemployed kickers all over the place that can hit from 60 yards but haven't been the most accurate, which is exactly what Vedvik is right now.

Why not just sign one of those guys if/when Bailey isn't the answer rather than investing longterm unnecessarily in Vedvik?

That bolded, plus the Carlson fiasco last year, plus what you said above in your response to Hate about ST coordinators not really even doing that much regarding technique...it at least warrants asking the question of what the fuck they actuallyare doing.

If you want to take the old school approach that Zim has, that kickers aren't players and they figure themselves out, then he's handling that totally wrong based on his results and deserves to be called out...especially when he's investing serious draft capital into the position.

If that's the approach you want, then you don't just go into camp with Dan Bailey after his year last season, and not mandate any competition. They easily could have sold McLaughlin on coming here to camp after the draft vs trying to unseat Hauschka in Buffalo, but they didn't. Had they had that monkey on Bailey's back from Day 1, maybe he wouldn't have afforded himself the opportunity to get off to such a slow start, which is why they felt they had to make the trade for Vedvik in the first place.

If you don't want to say they should have kept Vedvik then I can understand that, but I don't think anybody should be saying they don't deserve serious criticism for how this played out.

[Ash Ketchum]

I suppose you could use that to show that a team doesn't have to invest draft capital into finding a long term kicker, but considering we're a team that feels the need to try and draft the best legs possible (not arguing whether that's right or wrong) it does seem counterproductive to give up so quickly.

Carlson was apparently fixed by his own personal kicking coach, doing one small tweak to his approach. Now Oak has a potential pro bowl kicker for the next decade for free, because we didn't have the foresight to keep him around for a couple more weeks (while still bringing in Bailey) and try to figure out what is going on. We didn't even practice squad him, we just flat out gave up.

I think there's more going on with Vedvik, and we COULD HAVE AFFORDED to keep him around on the active roster still for a few weeks to try and see if we could figure out. You said so yourself above, that sometimes missed field goals aren't because the kicker isn't good enough. It very well could have been Wile as a holder that was the problem. We all know he's a bad holder, so why couldn't it be possible that a guy who seemed to be so fluid in Balt could just come in and unravel so quickly? You could have had him stick around for a few weeks and see if Colquitt would have made a difference, which early reports say he already is with Bailey.

I'm not trying to argue the merits of whether a team should use draft capital on kickers, but if you decide your a team that is going to, then it's worth your time to take a long term approach and force your coaches to put him in the best situation to succeed. A 2 week shotgun audition with a lousy holder is not doing that.

Fair take.

I'd completely agree if we were talking about an athletic LB or a fast WR who just needed a bit of refinement and experience before his athletic ability can truly be unleashed on the field. For guys like that, you can live with the mistakes because you know the upside could be worth it eventually.

With a kicker, there aren't varying degrees of being good or bad, there's no "promise" or "potential."

Maybe Wile as the holder was the problem. That very well could be. But since the change wasn't made there, I have to assume they felt it wasn't. I'm not arguing for or against that. And I'm not even saying Vedvik was at all at fault.

I'm simply arguing against the notion of keeping a kicker on the roster this year with the idea that you're stashing him for the future.

The fact that he has a big leg doesn't matter to me because this isn't 1995 where a kicker hitting from 55 is something only a few people can do. There are unemployed kickers all over the place that can hit from 60 yards but haven't been the most accurate, which is exactly what Vedvik is right now.

Why not just sign one of those guys if/when Bailey isn't the answer rather than investing longterm unnecessarily in Vedvik?

That bolded, plus the Carlson fiasco last year, plus what you said above in your response to Hate about ST coordinators not really even doing that much regarding technique...it at least warrants asking the question of what the fuck they actuallyare doing.

If you want to take the old school approach that Zim has, that kickers aren't players and they figure themselves out, then he's handling that totally wrong based on his results and deserves to be called out...especially when he's investing serious draft capital into the position.

If that's the approach you want, then you don't just go into camp with Dan Bailey after his year last season, and not mandate any competition. They easily could have sold McLaughlin on coming here to camp after the draft vs trying to unseat Hauschka in Buffalo, but they didn't. Had they had that monkey on Bailey's back from Day 1, maybe he wouldn't have afforded himself the opportunity to get off to such a slow start, which is why they felt they had to make the trade for Vedvik in the first place.

If you don't want to say they should have kept Vedvik then I can understand that, but I don't think anybody should be saying they don't deserve serious criticism for how this played out.

I agree they deserve criticism.

Spending the pick on Vedvik without a plan for him was stupid.

I just don’t believe Vedvik is worth keeping on the team as a “stash” for next season.

[Oriole81]

Fair take.

I'd completely agree if we were talking about an athletic LB or a fast WR who just needed a bit of refinement and experience before his athletic ability can truly be unleashed on the field. For guys like that, you can live with the mistakes because you know the upside could be worth it eventually.

With a kicker, there aren't varying degrees of being good or bad, there's no "promise" or "potential."

Maybe Wile as the holder was the problem. That very well could be. But since the change wasn't made there, I have to assume they felt it wasn't. I'm not arguing for or against that. And I'm not even saying Vedvik was at all at fault.

I'm simply arguing against the notion of keeping a kicker on the roster this year with the idea that you're stashing him for the future.

The fact that he has a big leg doesn't matter to me because this isn't 1995 where a kicker hitting from 55 is something only a few people can do. There are unemployed kickers all over the place that can hit from 60 yards but haven't been the most accurate, which is exactly what Vedvik is right now.

Why not just sign one of those guys if/when Bailey isn't the answer rather than investing longterm unnecessarily in Vedvik?

That bolded, plus the Carlson fiasco last year, plus what you said above in your response to Hate about ST coordinators not really even doing that much regarding technique...it at least warrants asking the question of what the fuck they actuallyare doing.

If you want to take the old school approach that Zim has, that kickers aren't players and they figure themselves out, then he's handling that totally wrong based on his results and deserves to be called out...especially when he's investing serious draft capital into the position.

If that's the approach you want, then you don't just go into camp with Dan Bailey after his year last season, and not mandate any competition. They easily could have sold McLaughlin on coming here to camp after the draft vs trying to unseat Hauschka in Buffalo, but they didn't. Had they had that monkey on Bailey's back from Day 1, maybe he wouldn't have afforded himself the opportunity to get off to such a slow start, which is why they felt they had to make the trade for Vedvik in the first place.

If you don't want to say they should have kept Vedvik then I can understand that, but I don't think anybody should be saying they don't deserve serious criticism for how this played out.

I agree they deserve criticism.

Spending the pick on Vedvik without a plan for him was stupid.

I just don’t believe Vedvik is worth keeping on the team as a “stash” for next season.

And I'm not trying to say they should or shouldn't have either, I really don't care at this point.
But I do think they could have AFFORDED to if they really wanted. For everyone though that says you can find a kicker with a big leg (not targetting you specifically) , you should also remind them that you can find a RB of Abdullah's ability anytime pretty easily too.

[hategreenticemase]

With a kicker, there aren't varying degrees of being good or bad, there's no "promise" or "potential."


I'm not going to pick this argument back up for the previous reasons stated, but for a smart guy, that may be the dumbest fucking thing I have ever seen written here. Yeah, a guy can't be inexperienced, or never gotten good coaching, or are transitioning to football from soccer, or just have some small inconsistantancies with mechanics. Never happens.

It's almost as absurd as your odd and silly obsession with "ST coaches don't do anything with K on technique". Are you out of your fucking mind? Good Lord this sport is obsessed with the most minute details and plan out when they should take a dump but you think they just let them kick on their own? Ok.

[Ash Ketchum]

With a kicker, there aren't varying degrees of being good or bad, there's no "promise" or "potential."


I'm not going to pick this argument back up for the previous reasons stated, but for a smart guy, that may be the dumbest fucking thing I have ever seen written here. Yeah, a guy can't be inexperienced, or never gotten good coaching, or are transitioning to football from soccer, or just have some small inconsistantancies with mechanics. Never happens.

It's almost as absurd as your odd and silly obsession with "ST coaches don't do anything with K on technique". Are you out of your fucking mind? Good Lord this sport is obsessed with the most minute details and plan out when they should take a dump but you think they just let them kick on their own? Ok.

Yes. The specialists are essentially left alone.

Do you know how many kickers are even invited to NFL training camps who have never gotten good coaching or are just now transitioning from soccer? Literally zero.

Year round, for kickers who are serious about it, there are numerous elite invite-only kicking camps held across the country where the top high school and college kickers all showcase their talents in one place. They have specialist coaches who spend time refining technique and getting the elite young kickers ready for their careers. I don't have the exact number, but I would guess that 90-100% of current NFL kickers came up this way.

These camps along with a ton of private coaching -- who are often Kohl's employees or other professional services who run the camps -- are what shape NFL kickers' core mechanics, not their ST coordinators once they reach the league. Once they get to the league, kickers are essentially a finished product. Sure, if the mechanics look sloppy, there will be reminders and film work and such, but nothing is getting overhauled.

I remember Paul Edinger a few years back, who would almost be facing with his back to the ball when he lined up to kick. You don't think if NFL coaches were in the business of overhauling kickers' technique that Edinger wouldn't have been asked to change (he hit over 80% in a season just once)? No, because NFL coaches don't fuck with kickers technique too much. They sign a kicker they don't have to worry about, and when it becomes too much of a worry, they replace him. That's just how it works.

[Beef Supreme]

Cut by the jets today.


Could the dream still be alive?

[Oscar]

Spielman needs to sign him to the practice squad! It will be like getting your 5th round pick back.

#TOPTENGM

#MOIST

[UnFadeable21]

Sign him to practice squad as a punter in training

[Herky]

Cut by the jets today.


Could the dream still be alive?

XFL?

[Oriole81]

Wouldn’t surprise me one bit either of Balt signed him to their PS and he’s soon back being as good as he was.

Learning under an all time great kicker, working with one of the best holders, and with a coach like Harbaugh that came up in special teams; perfect recipe to get the most out of a raw talent