Krammer: Kirk Cousins aiming to reach 'next level' this season with multiple playoff wins

[Joe Bag 'O Donuts]

Of course we can’t know. It’s opportunity cost. I’m not inventing this concept. There’s a lot we don’t and can’t know about what could have happened. We could have signed a guy that helped us win a super bowl. We could have squandered it on a complete bum. We don’t know. But we know the possibilities exist. We do know what we did. And we know it gave us 8-7-1 the first year. That’s what we know. I’m not satisfied so far. Are you?

I think you're confusing cause and effect. There's no evidence that the Vikings just needed an extra guy or two last year, that the Cousins contract prevented them from doing so, and led to the downfall. There's plenty of in-house evidence that support factors unrelated to contracts or financial decisions.

Sure. Multiple holes. Do you think an extra ~$15-25M in cap space could have addressed some of those holes?


That’s opportunity cost.


8-7-1 is the result. That is failure, in my estimation. We’ve chosen to address those holes this year via the draft and some modest FAs. Hopefully it’s enough. Year two should be 10+ wins and probably a playoff win (barring multiple key injuries), but I’m not certain I want to make a playoff win a minimum expectation. Cousins says 2 playoff wins, so I’m more lenient on him than he is on himself. But we have to at least get there.

What are your expectations for year 2?

"Could have" vs "Would have" is a very flimsy basis with which to judge individual performance relative to contract and cap concerns. It's also a very flimsy argument.

[Joe Bag 'O Donuts]

I'll add that it's certainly fine to judge team decisions, and come to the realization that a QB is not in the best interest of the team. It's also fine, and entirely possible to judge QB performance irrespective of contract size.

[cunningham]

Joe is not being honest, he is pivoting the argument to Teddy Bridgewater or saying that this is the best quarterback since Favre to troll. Knowing that Teddy was in his first year as a starter on his rookie deal, but yet trying to compare him to a 30+ year old veteran making $84 million.

Stop with the Packer game. Many quarterbacks have flashes, hell Teddy nailed that ball in that third preseason game before his leg blew. Who the fuck knows what might have been, but we now know what is. Teddy’s time here ended. Keenum was here for a magical 13-1 season, and Cousins has not been better. He has 84 million reasons to show he can win games that matter.

Yes, the throw for the two pointer was beautiful, but we need more than flashes. We need him to step up when it really matters.

1-13 on third down with the playoffs on the line is fucking pathetic. Teddy wins that game. Because even though Teddy never had the arm of Cousins he had twice the heart.

Do you think Cousins spends two years when everyone says his career is over rehabbing with the team? That is heart. Not BS “you like that”...

Now go to town Joe, this is what you want to argue with. Start talking shot about how I am a moron for believing the kid had heart. Screw his stats - he did what was asked to lead the team to victory. He didn’t need to get 4000 yards to do what his team needed. He lined up under center to help AP and had blitzing 8 men fronts with a shittier line and horse shit for receivers.

When he played the team won the North and nearly beat a very good Seattle team in the playoffs. Same year Cousins backs into the playoffs and get his butt kicked by the Packers.

AP fumbled in that playoff game and Teddy put that team on his back. That is why they believed in him.AP choked with his salary too, but Teddy’s heart gave us a few games.

That shit isn’t taught. You either have it or you don’t. So far Cousins hasn’t shown he has the heart to pick this team up and win.

This is his last chance and there are no excuses. He has the money, line, coaches, receivers, TE, and defense. He better win. He is the face of the organization and where our money is.

[Joe Bag 'O Donuts]

Joe is not being honest, he is pivoting the argument to Teddy Bridgewater or saying that this is the best quarterback since Favre to troll. Knowing that Teddy was in his first year as a starter on his rookie deal, but yet trying to compare him to a 30+ year old veteran making $84 million.

Stop with the Packer game. Many quarterbacks have flashes, hell Teddy nailed that ball in that third preseason game before his leg blew. Who the fuck knows what might have been, but we now know what is. Teddy’s time here ended. Keenum was here for a magical 13-1 season, and Cousins has not been better. He has 84 million reasons to show he can win games that matter.

Yes, the throw for the two pointer was beautiful, but we need more than flashes. We need him to step up when it really matters.

1-13 on third down with the playoffs on the line is fucking pathetic. Teddy wins that game. Because even though Teddy never had the arm of Cousins he had twice the heart.

Do you think Cousins spends two years when everyone says his career is over rehabbing with the team? That is heart. Not BS “you like that”...

Now go to town Joe, this is what you want to argue with. Start talking shot about how I am a moron for believing the kid had heart. Screw his stats - he did what was asked to lead the team to victory. He didn’t need to get 4000 yards to do what his team needed. He lined up under center to help AP and had blitzing 8 men fronts with a shittier line and horse shit for receivers.

When he played the team won the North and nearly beat a very good Seattle team in the playoffs. Same year Cousins backs into the playoffs and get his butt kicked by the Bears.

AP fumbled in that playoff game and Teddy put that team on his back. That is why they believed in him.AP choked with his salary too, but Teddy’s heart gave us a few games.

That shit isn’t taught. You either have it or you don’t. So far Cousins hasn’t shown he has the heart to pick this team up and win.

This is his last chance and there are no excuses. He has the money, line, coaches, receivers, TE, and defense. He better win. He is the face of the organization and where our money is.

Yes, let's add more variables with which to excuse Teddy. Younger, not making as much money, skinny knees, can't throw the ball. Beef helped you with another excuse.

KC 2018:
40 sacks for 262 yards
44 rushes for 123 yards

TB 2015:
44 sacks for 307 yards
44 rushes for 192 yards

So yes, when Teddy was scrambling with his "magic feet", he was in fact, doing nothing. Sorry, didn't look at contract details before assessing these numbers.

[Beef Supreme]

I think you're confusing cause and effect. There's no evidence that the Vikings just needed an extra guy or two last year, that the Cousins contract prevented them from doing so, and led to the downfall. There's plenty of in-house evidence that support factors unrelated to contracts or financial decisions.

Sure. Multiple holes. Do you think an extra ~$15-25M in cap space could have addressed some of those holes?


That’s opportunity cost.


8-7-1 is the result. That is failure, in my estimation. We’ve chosen to address those holes this year via the draft and some modest FAs. Hopefully it’s enough. Year two should be 10+ wins and probably a playoff win (barring multiple key injuries), but I’m not certain I want to make a playoff win a minimum expectation. Cousins says 2 playoff wins, so I’m more lenient on him than he is on himself. But we have to at least get there.

What are your expectations for year 2?

It's too hard to say "We need to win two playoff games" there are too many variables. Who you are playing, where at etc.

I'm SB or bust but I will call it a good season with a division title and a playoff win. That is a absolute must imo.

Even you have slightly higher expectations than I do.

[Beef Supreme]

I'll add that it's certainly fine to judge team decisions, and come to the realization that a QB is not in the best interest of the team. It's also fine, and entirely possible to judge QB performance irrespective of contract size.

Sure. I do both. But one is relevant to wins and losses. The other is just idle chatter.

[Beef Supreme]

Joe is not being honest, he is pivoting the argument to Teddy Bridgewater or saying that this is the best quarterback since Favre to troll. Knowing that Teddy was in his first year as a starter on his rookie deal, but yet trying to compare him to a 30+ year old veteran making $84 million.

Stop with the Packer game. Many quarterbacks have flashes, hell Teddy nailed that ball in that third preseason game before his leg blew. Who the fuck knows what might have been, but we now know what is. Teddy’s time here ended. Keenum was here for a magical 13-1 season, and Cousins has not been better. He has 84 million reasons to show he can win games that matter.

Yes, the throw for the two pointer was beautiful, but we need more than flashes. We need him to step up when it really matters.

1-13 on third down with the playoffs on the line is fucking pathetic. Teddy wins that game. Because even though Teddy never had the arm of Cousins he had twice the heart.

Do you think Cousins spends two years when everyone says his career is over rehabbing with the team? That is heart. Not BS “you like that”...

Now go to town Joe, this is what you want to argue with. Start talking shot about how I am a moron for believing the kid had heart. Screw his stats - he did what was asked to lead the team to victory. He didn’t need to get 4000 yards to do what his team needed. He lined up under center to help AP and had blitzing 8 men fronts with a shittier line and horse shit for receivers.

When he played the team won the North and nearly beat a very good Seattle team in the playoffs. Same year Cousins backs into the playoffs and get his butt kicked by the Bears.

AP fumbled in that playoff game and Teddy put that team on his back. That is why they believed in him.AP choked with his salary too, but Teddy’s heart gave us a few games.

That shit isn’t taught. You either have it or you don’t. So far Cousins hasn’t shown he has the heart to pick this team up and win.

This is his last chance and there are no excuses. He has the money, line, coaches, receivers, TE, and defense. He better win. He is the face of the organization and where our money is.

Yes, let's add more variables with which to excuse Teddy. Younger, not making as much money, skinny knees, can't throw the ball. Beef helped you with another excuse.

KC 2018:
40 sacks for 262 yards
44 rushes for 123 yards

TB 2015:
44 sacks for 307 yards
44 rushes for 192 yards

So yes, when Teddy was scrambling with his "magic feet", he was in fact, doing nothing. Sorry, didn't look at contract details before assessing these numbers.

Now look at how often he was pressured as a percentage of drop-backs.

[Joe Bag 'O Donuts]

Joe is not being honest, he is pivoting the argument to Teddy Bridgewater or saying that this is the best quarterback since Favre to troll. Knowing that Teddy was in his first year as a starter on his rookie deal, but yet trying to compare him to a 30+ year old veteran making $84 million.

Stop with the Packer game. Many quarterbacks have flashes, hell Teddy nailed that ball in that third preseason game before his leg blew. Who the fuck knows what might have been, but we now know what is. Teddy’s time here ended. Keenum was here for a magical 13-1 season, and Cousins has not been better. He has 84 million reasons to show he can win games that matter.

Yes, the throw for the two pointer was beautiful, but we need more than flashes. We need him to step up when it really matters.

1-13 on third down with the playoffs on the line is fucking pathetic. Teddy wins that game. Because even though Teddy never had the arm of Cousins he had twice the heart.

Do you think Cousins spends two years when everyone says his career is over rehabbing with the team? That is heart. Not BS “you like that”...

Now go to town Joe, this is what you want to argue with. Start talking shot about how I am a moron for believing the kid had heart. Screw his stats - he did what was asked to lead the team to victory. He didn’t need to get 4000 yards to do what his team needed. He lined up under center to help AP and had blitzing 8 men fronts with a shittier line and horse shit for receivers.

When he played the team won the North and nearly beat a very good Seattle team in the playoffs. Same year Cousins backs into the playoffs and get his butt kicked by the Bears.

AP fumbled in that playoff game and Teddy put that team on his back. That is why they believed in him.AP choked with his salary too, but Teddy’s heart gave us a few games.

That shit isn’t taught. You either have it or you don’t. So far Cousins hasn’t shown he has the heart to pick this team up and win.

This is his last chance and there are no excuses. He has the money, line, coaches, receivers, TE, and defense. He better win. He is the face of the organization and where our money is.

Yes, let's add more variables with which to excuse Teddy. Younger, not making as much money, skinny knees, can't throw the ball. Beef helped you with another excuse.

KC 2018:
40 sacks for 262 yards
44 rushes for 123 yards

TB 2015:
44 sacks for 307 yards
44 rushes for 192 yards

So yes, when Teddy was scrambling with his "magic feet", he was in fact, doing nothing. Sorry, didn't look at contract details before assessing these numbers.

Now look at how often he was pressured as a percentage of drop-backs.

I didn't question that stat. Irrelevant to the argument. You argued that what I said was nonsense.

[Joe Bag 'O Donuts]

I'll add that it's certainly fine to judge team decisions, and come to the realization that a QB is not in the best interest of the team. It's also fine, and entirely possible to judge QB performance irrespective of contract size.

Sure. I do both. But one is relevant to wins and losses. The other is just idle chatter.

False. QB production is relevant to wins and losses.

[RubeTube]

Sure. Multiple holes. Do you think an extra ~$15-25M in cap space could have addressed some of those holes?


That’s opportunity cost.


8-7-1 is the result. That is failure, in my estimation. We’ve chosen to address those holes this year via the draft and some modest FAs. Hopefully it’s enough. Year two should be 10+ wins and probably a playoff win (barring multiple key injuries), but I’m not certain I want to make a playoff win a minimum expectation. Cousins says 2 playoff wins, so I’m more lenient on him than he is on himself. But we have to at least get there.

What are your expectations for year 2?

It's too hard to say "We need to win two playoff games" there are too many variables. Who you are playing, where at etc.

I'm SB or bust but I will call it a good season with a division title and a playoff win. That is a absolute must imo.

Even you have slightly higher expectations than I do.

I shouldn't just pin it on a division title either. GB could go 15-1 or something bizarre and there isn't anything you can do.

They need to go 11-5 or better with a playoff win. Anything else is unacceptable imo.

[Beef Supreme]

Yes, let's add more variables with which to excuse Teddy. Younger, not making as much money, skinny knees, can't throw the ball. Beef helped you with another excuse.

KC 2018:
40 sacks for 262 yards
44 rushes for 123 yards

TB 2015:
44 sacks for 307 yards
44 rushes for 192 yards

So yes, when Teddy was scrambling with his "magic feet", he was in fact, doing nothing. Sorry, didn't look at contract details before assessing these numbers.

Now look at how often he was pressured as a percentage of drop-backs.

I didn't question that stat. Irrelevant to the argument. You argued that what I said was nonsense.

It's not irrelevant at all. You posted aggregate stats. There needs to be more context. If you're sacked 40 times on 80 pressures that says one thing. If you're sacked 40 times on 200 pressures, that says another.
'

But again, Cousins > Teddy. So don't get the argument twisted. It's about roster-building. Is Cousins better enough than Teddy to allow the heavy financial investment it took to get him and still be able to field a competitive roster. Year 1 says no. But it is a 3-year experiment for a reason. The roster of year 2 looks good. Let's see what the returns are.

[Beef Supreme]

It's too hard to say "We need to win two playoff games" there are too many variables. Who you are playing, where at etc.

I'm SB or bust but I will call it a good season with a division title and a playoff win. That is a absolute must imo.

Even you have slightly higher expectations than I do.

I shouldn't just pin it on a division title either. GB could go 15-1 or something bizarre and there isn't anything you can do.

They need to go 11-5 or better with a playoff win. Anything else is unacceptable imo.

Fair enough. With the caveat of a rash of key injuries of course. We'll check in on this in January of 2020 and see what's what.

[Beef Supreme]

I'll add that it's certainly fine to judge team decisions, and come to the realization that a QB is not in the best interest of the team. It's also fine, and entirely possible to judge QB performance irrespective of contract size.

Sure. I do both. But one is relevant to wins and losses. The other is just idle chatter.

False. QB production is relevant to wins and losses.

And contract size can have a similar, but detrimental impact on the rest of the roster and is similarly relevant to wins and losses and must be taken into account when discussing said QB production. And around and around we go!


It's not just the bang. It's the bang for your buck.

[cunningham]

It is all a part of the big picture and all around strategy that the salary cap presents. I am fully behind having caps at positions and making it more equitable from a players perspective. But I suppose that just is part of the competition. I’d hate to be a total stud at my position and like the team I play for, but have to leave because of bad decisions.

Teddy is done, Keenum is gone, and we have Cousins for three years. The team is bending over backward to make this work. I have my reservations, but it has been a very long time since an offensive coach of Kubiak’s level has been here. McVay, Shannahan, Gruden have all worked with Cousins. They got the same results as what we saw last season.

I just keep wondering how a guy at 31 is gonna all of a sudden win more than 9 games when he has never done it in his entire NFL career. Keenum came in and did it right off the bat, but did people give excuses for Keenum?

No, they said it was luck he played so well. When Cousins shit the bed the excuses came immediately.

That is because of the contract and the money. Now it is about saving jobs.

Keenum just walks in and we go 13-3 and people say he was just lucky. Shurmur, the coach from Cleveland was some genius?

Forget that.

Cousins comes in and goes 8-7-1 with a team that played in the NFC Championship game the year before. Most of Cousins seasons have that same damn record.

Wouldn’t any science or person in their right mind deduce that at 31 this season that maybe this is who Cousins is?

We will see if Kubiak can make lemonade out of our lemon, but stop trying to tell me that Cousins showed he was worth the money or that he is this great quarterback. That he is the best since Favre. Win some goddamn games and show us fans you are a franchise quarterback. Because what I saw last season told me exactly why the Redskins dropped him, why McVay didn’t make a run for him, and why Spielman sucks at evaluating the quarterback position.

[RubeTube]

It is all a part of the big picture and all around strategy that the salary cap presents. I am fully behind having caps at positions and making it more equitable from a players perspective. But I suppose that just is part of the competition. I’d hate to be a total stud at my position and like the team I play for, but have to leave because of bad decisions.

Teddy is done, Keenum is gone, and we have Cousins for three years. The team is bending over backward to make this work. I have my reservations, but it has been a very long time since an offensive coach of Kubiak’s level has been here. McVay, Shannahan, Gruden have all worked with Cousins. They got the same results as what we saw last season.

I just keep wondering how a guy at 31 is gonna all of a sudden win more than 9 games when he has never done it in his entire NFL career. Keenum came in and did it right off the bat, but did people give excuses for Keenum?

No, they said it was luck he played so well. When Cousins shit the bed the excuses came immediately.

That is because of the contract and the money. Now it is about saving jobs.

Keenum just walks in and we go 13-3 and people say he was just lucky. Shurmur, the coach from Cleveland was some genius?

Forget that.

Cousins comes in and goes 8-7-1 with a team that played in the NFC Championship game the year before. Most of Cousins seasons have that same damn record.

Wouldn’t any science or person in their right mind deduce that at 31 this season that maybe this is who Cousins is?

We will see if Kubiak can make lemonade out of our lemon, but stop trying to tell me that Cousins showed he was worth the money or that he is this great quarterback. That he is the best since Favre. Win some goddamn games and show us fans you are a franchise quarterback. Because what I saw last season told me exactly why the Redskins dropped him, why McVay didn’t make a run for him, and why Spielman sucks at evaluating the quarterback position.

Kirk has more wins than Turdwater and Clueless Keenum combined.

You never answered my question before...

We should probably take a look at Bortles, Ponder, Tebow etc..

These guy's all made the playoffs and two of them won playoff games.

[Beef Supreme]

It is all a part of the big picture and all around strategy that the salary cap presents. I am fully behind having caps at positions and making it more equitable from a players perspective. But I suppose that just is part of the competition. I’d hate to be a total stud at my position and like the team I play for, but have to leave because of bad decisions.

Teddy is done, Keenum is gone, and we have Cousins for three years. The team is bending over backward to make this work. I have my reservations, but it has been a very long time since an offensive coach of Kubiak’s level has been here. McVay, Shannahan, Gruden have all worked with Cousins. They got the same results as what we saw last season.

I just keep wondering how a guy at 31 is gonna all of a sudden win more than 9 games when he has never done it in his entire NFL career. Keenum came in and did it right off the bat, but did people give excuses for Keenum?

No, they said it was luck he played so well. When Cousins shit the bed the excuses came immediately.

That is because of the contract and the money. Now it is about saving jobs.

Keenum just walks in and we go 13-3 and people say he was just lucky. Shurmur, the coach from Cleveland was some genius?

Forget that.

Cousins comes in and goes 8-7-1 with a team that played in the NFC Championship game the year before. Most of Cousins seasons have that same damn record.

Wouldn’t any science or person in their right mind deduce that at 31 this season that maybe this is who Cousins is?

We will see if Kubiak can make lemonade out of our lemon, but stop trying to tell me that Cousins showed he was worth the money or that he is this great quarterback. That he is the best since Favre. Win some goddamn games and show us fans you are a franchise quarterback. Because what I saw last season told me exactly why the Redskins dropped him, why McVay didn’t make a run for him, and why Spielman sucks at evaluating the quarterback position.

Kirk has more wins than Turdwater and Clueless Keenum combined.

You never answered my question before...

We should probably take a look at Bortles, Ponder, Tebow etc..

These guy's all made the playoffs and two of them won playoff games.

False.

Keenum (26-28) + Teddy (17-12) = 43-40.

Cousins = 34-37-2

43 > 34.

So Keenum and Teddy have 43 wins in 83 games and a .5375 winning percentage.

Cousins has 34 wins and 2 ties in 73 games, a .4795 winning percentage (giving him half a win for each tie).


You can make the argument that Cousins is a better QB than Teddy or Keenum pretty easily. You don't have to misrepresent facts to do it.

[Ash Ketchum]

But the same could be said for cousins at Green Bay. Maybe you forget, but the offense laid an egg most of the game (7 points in the first 3 quarters) and exploded late (22 in the 4th) to force OT. If the offense shows up at kickoff, we win that game in regulation. Some of that is on Kirk too. Again, overall it was his best moment of the year and when he most looked like the “answer” to our QB issues. But it’s not like it was a 52-52 tie where nobody could stop anybody. The offense was bad for 3 quarters.

It’s analogous to the Seattle game, revised down overall for way worse conditions and a way better quality of opponent.

Yep, and I’m not disputing that core argument. And the Green Bay example isn’t the best because we got bailed out by the call on Matthews’ sack.

But it’s oversimplifying the argument regardless. Do you think Teddy is/was even physically capable of making that throw to Thielen to set up the tying 2-pointer?

I guess my only gripe with this argument is that it’s not just black and white.

I do not think that teddy was capable of making that particular throw. He was however, capable of evading the rush and buying more time in the pocket than Cousins.


Do you know that Teddy faced pressure on a higher percentage of his throws in 2015 than Cousins did last year? His OL was worse than Cousins was last year at protecting him. But the bad OL excuse (which has merit) is only thrown out for Cousins defense. Because Teddy did not have the arm that Cousins does. But Cousins doesn’t have the feet that Teddy did.

Most of this is fair, although people definitely brought up the pass protection in defense of Teddy, and rightly so.

But given the choice of the two, you take the guy who can stand in the pocket and make throws.

I’m not trying to come off as someone who blindly just rips of Teddy. Had he not gotten injured, perhaps he would have developed into a good starting QB. I’m also not 100% in Cousins’ corner. He definitely has flaws.

I’m only arguing the idea that the QB gets a disproportional amount of credit for wins and losses. Team wins = QB good. Team loses = QB bad.

[Beef Supreme]

I’m only arguing the idea that the QB gets a disproportional amount of credit for wins and losses. Team wins = QB good. Team loses = QB bad.

It is an oversimplification, but it's not 100% wrong. The quarterback has more influence on wins and losses than any other player. It's like the pitcher in baseball or the goalie in hockey. They all get wins and losses tracked for them. Nobody tracks wins/losses for a safety or a right fielder or a left wing. They don't have the disproportionate influence over wins and losses that quarterbacks, pitchers, and goalies do.


I'll say this again. A quarterback can play brilliantly and lose. He can play terribly and win. So you can make those arguments on a game-by-game basis. But over the course of a career, that shit evens out. Eventually, you are what your record says you are. Cousins is almost 75 starts into his career. I'm worried that he is what he is. A very good passer, but a mediocre quarterback. A guy who struggles under pressure and doesn't rise to big moments in big games. That's his history and it's becoming more settled with every game and every season. If he has another season of around .500 ball, then what? He'll be at almost 90 starts at the end of the year, assuming he stays healthy (which is a very positive trait of his; he's durable). Even if he throws for 4,000 yards and 30TDs again. If he's 42-45-2 after this year, then what?

[RubeTube]

I’m only arguing the idea that the QB gets a disproportional amount of credit for wins and losses. Team wins = QB good. Team loses = QB bad.

It is an oversimplification, but it's not 100% wrong. The quarterback has more influence on wins and losses than any other player. It's like the pitcher in baseball or the goalie in hockey. They all get wins and losses tracked for them. Nobody tracks wins/losses for a safety or a right fielder or a left wing. They don't have the disproportionate influence over wins and losses that quarterbacks, pitchers, and goalies do.


I'll say this again. A quarterback can play brilliantly and lose. He can play terribly and win. So you can make those arguments on a game-by-game basis. But over the course of a career, that shit evens out. Eventually, you are what your record says you are. Cousins is almost 75 starts into his career. I'm worried that he is what he is. A very good passer, but a mediocre quarterback. A guy who struggles under pressure and doesn't rise to big moments in big games. That's his history and it's becoming more settled with every game and every season. If he has another season of around .500 ball, then what? He'll be at almost 90 starts at the end of the year, assuming he stays healthy (which is a very positive trait of his; he's durable). Even if he throws for 4,000 yards and 30TDs again. If he's 42-45-2 after this year, then what?

It's really not that hard to figure out, Beef.

If the Vikings have a successful season, you extend KDC and lock him up.

If they have a mediocre season, you probably bring most of it back again for one more season since Cousins, Zimmer, Spielman have a year left.

If you completely suck then it's time to fire the coach, GM and start looking at drafting a QB to sit behind Kirk with his last year under contract.

If they can't get it together over the next two years, it's time to blow the whole thing up other than pur young core guy's who are signed long term.

The questions and naysayers will be put to sleep this fall imo. Vikings roll to 12-4, KDC is a MVP candidate and we won't be looking for a QB anytime soon.

#Hoist

[Joe Bag 'O Donuts]

Now look at how often he was pressured as a percentage of drop-backs.

I didn't question that stat. Irrelevant to the argument. You argued that what I said was nonsense.

It's not irrelevant at all. You posted aggregate stats. There needs to be more context. If you're sacked 40 times on 80 pressures that says one thing. If you're sacked 40 times on 200 pressures, that says another.
'

But again, Cousins > Teddy. So don't get the argument twisted. It's about roster-building. Is Cousins better enough than Teddy to allow the heavy financial investment it took to get him and still be able to field a competitive roster. Year 1 says no. But it is a 3-year experiment for a reason. The roster of year 2 looks good. Let's see what the returns are.

I made the claim that Teddy essentially ran around and did nothing, you said that was nonsense, and said Teddy had better legs (pre-injury). I provided information that didn't back up Teddy's better legs, unless you count running around and eventually getting nowhere. There's no further context or per-dropback needed.

[Joe Bag 'O Donuts]

It is all a part of the big picture and all around strategy that the salary cap presents. I am fully behind having caps at positions and making it more equitable from a players perspective. But I suppose that just is part of the competition. I’d hate to be a total stud at my position and like the team I play for, but have to leave because of bad decisions.

Teddy is done, Keenum is gone, and we have Cousins for three years. The team is bending over backward to make this work. I have my reservations, but it has been a very long time since an offensive coach of Kubiak’s level has been here. McVay, Shannahan, Gruden have all worked with Cousins. They got the same results as what we saw last season.

I just keep wondering how a guy at 31 is gonna all of a sudden win more than 9 games when he has never done it in his entire NFL career. Keenum came in and did it right off the bat, but did people give excuses for Keenum?

No, they said it was luck he played so well. When Cousins shit the bed the excuses came immediately.

That is because of the contract and the money. Now it is about saving jobs.

Keenum just walks in and we go 13-3 and people say he was just lucky. Shurmur, the coach from Cleveland was some genius?

Forget that.

Cousins comes in and goes 8-7-1 with a team that played in the NFC Championship game the year before. Most of Cousins seasons have that same damn record.

Wouldn’t any science or person in their right mind deduce that at 31 this season that maybe this is who Cousins is?

We will see if Kubiak can make lemonade out of our lemon, but stop trying to tell me that Cousins showed he was worth the money or that he is this great quarterback. That he is the best since Favre. Win some goddamn games and show us fans you are a franchise quarterback. Because what I saw last season told me exactly why the Redskins dropped him, why McVay didn’t make a run for him, and why Spielman sucks at evaluating the quarterback position.

Don't piggyback on Beef's swerve. You're not smart enough to do that.

[Joe Bag 'O Donuts]

Sure. I do both. But one is relevant to wins and losses. The other is just idle chatter.

False. QB production is relevant to wins and losses.

And contract size can have a similar, but detrimental impact on the rest of the roster and is similarly relevant to wins and losses and must be taken into account when discussing said QB production. And around and around we go!


It's not just the bang. It's the bang for your buck.

Yes. And that would be a judgement of team decision making. But your claim was that QB production is not relevant to wins anand losses, so don't twist the argument again. It's absolutely relevant, which makes you wrong.

[Joe Bag 'O Donuts]

I’m only arguing the idea that the QB gets a disproportional amount of credit for wins and losses. Team wins = QB good. Team loses = QB bad.

It is an oversimplification, but it's not 100% wrong. The quarterback has more influence on wins and losses than any other player. It's like the pitcher in baseball or the goalie in hockey. They all get wins and losses tracked for them. Nobody tracks wins/losses for a safety or a right fielder or a left wing. They don't have the disproportionate influence over wins and losses that quarterbacks, pitchers, and goalies do.


I'll say this again. A quarterback can play brilliantly and lose. He can play terribly and win. So you can make those arguments on a game-by-game basis. But over the course of a career, that shit evens out. Eventually, you are what your record says you are. Cousins is almost 75 starts into his career. I'm worried that he is what he is. A very good passer, but a mediocre quarterback. A guy who struggles under pressure and doesn't rise to big moments in big games. That's his history and it's becoming more settled with every game and every season. If he has another season of around .500 ball, then what? He'll be at almost 90 starts at the end of the year, assuming he stays healthy (which is a very positive trait of his; he's durable). Even if he throws for 4,000 yards and 30TDs again. If he's 42-45-2 after this year, then what?

I don't disagree with your overall point, but I think you're putting far too much stock in the Washington organization. And sure, the first year didn't turn out wonderful here, and it sounds like you think that was at least primarily a QB issue. I disagree.

Although, since Cousins got paid less in Washington, it seems his play was much better, since that's how you primarily judge QB's. So, I guess it's true, he got worse this year because his contract was much bigger. The good news is that there were a couple bigger contracts of late, so he's gotten better this off season.

[Beef Supreme]

I’m only arguing the idea that the QB gets a disproportional amount of credit for wins and losses. Team wins = QB good. Team loses = QB bad.

It is an oversimplification, but it's not 100% wrong. The quarterback has more influence on wins and losses than any other player. It's like the pitcher in baseball or the goalie in hockey. They all get wins and losses tracked for them. Nobody tracks wins/losses for a safety or a right fielder or a left wing. They don't have the disproportionate influence over wins and losses that quarterbacks, pitchers, and goalies do.


I'll say this again. A quarterback can play brilliantly and lose. He can play terribly and win. So you can make those arguments on a game-by-game basis. But over the course of a career, that shit evens out. Eventually, you are what your record says you are. Cousins is almost 75 starts into his career. I'm worried that he is what he is. A very good passer, but a mediocre quarterback. A guy who struggles under pressure and doesn't rise to big moments in big games. That's his history and it's becoming more settled with every game and every season. If he has another season of around .500 ball, then what? He'll be at almost 90 starts at the end of the year, assuming he stays healthy (which is a very positive trait of his; he's durable). Even if he throws for 4,000 yards and 30TDs again. If he's 42-45-2 after this year, then what?

I don't disagree with your overall point, but I think you're putting far too much stock in the Washington organization. And sure, the first year didn't turn out wonderful here, and it sounds like you think that was at least primarily a QB issue. I disagree.

Although, since Cousins got paid less in Washington, it seems his play was much better, since that's how you primarily judge QB's. So, I guess it's true, he got worse this year because his contract was much bigger. The good news is that there were a couple bigger contracts of late, so he's gotten better this off season.

Stop being an idiot. It’s about value and it’s relative. You’re being intentionally obtuse and it’s not a good look.

[Joe Bag 'O Donuts]

It is an oversimplification, but it's not 100% wrong. The quarterback has more influence on wins and losses than any other player. It's like the pitcher in baseball or the goalie in hockey. They all get wins and losses tracked for them. Nobody tracks wins/losses for a safety or a right fielder or a left wing. They don't have the disproportionate influence over wins and losses that quarterbacks, pitchers, and goalies do.


I'll say this again. A quarterback can play brilliantly and lose. He can play terribly and win. So you can make those arguments on a game-by-game basis. But over the course of a career, that shit evens out. Eventually, you are what your record says you are. Cousins is almost 75 starts into his career. I'm worried that he is what he is. A very good passer, but a mediocre quarterback. A guy who struggles under pressure and doesn't rise to big moments in big games. That's his history and it's becoming more settled with every game and every season. If he has another season of around .500 ball, then what? He'll be at almost 90 starts at the end of the year, assuming he stays healthy (which is a very positive trait of his; he's durable). Even if he throws for 4,000 yards and 30TDs again. If he's 42-45-2 after this year, then what?

I don't disagree with your overall point, but I think you're putting far too much stock in the Washington organization. And sure, the first year didn't turn out wonderful here, and it sounds like you think that was at least primarily a QB issue. I disagree.

Although, since Cousins got paid less in Washington, it seems his play was much better, since that's how you primarily judge QB's. So, I guess it's true, he got worse this year because his contract was much bigger. The good news is that there were a couple bigger contracts of late, so he's gotten better this off season.

Stop being an idiot. It’s about value and it’s relative. You’re being intentionally obtuse and it’s not a good look.

Oh, so it's different when you can kinda, sorta post little cheeky troll comments, but when I post your silly argument back to you, it's a problem. It's ok Beef, you always have that little contract swerve to fall back on when it's clear your half-hearted argument isn't working.

[Beef Supreme]

I don't disagree with your overall point, but I think you're putting far too much stock in the Washington organization. And sure, the first year didn't turn out wonderful here, and it sounds like you think that was at least primarily a QB issue. I disagree.

Although, since Cousins got paid less in Washington, it seems his play was much better, since that's how you primarily judge QB's. So, I guess it's true, he got worse this year because his contract was much bigger. The good news is that there were a couple bigger contracts of late, so he's gotten better this off season.

Stop being an idiot. It’s about value and it’s relative. You’re being intentionally obtuse and it’s not a good look.

Oh, so it's different when you can kinda, sorta post little cheeky troll comments, but when I post your silly argument back to you, it's a problem. It's ok Beef, you always have that little contract swerve to fall back on when it's clear your half-hearted argument isn't working.

Well, I think we’re done for the night.

[Joe Bag 'O Donuts]

Stop being an idiot. It’s about value and it’s relative. You’re being intentionally obtuse and it’s not a good look.

Oh, so it's different when you can kinda, sorta post little cheeky troll comments, but when I post your silly argument back to you, it's a problem. It's ok Beef, you always have that little contract swerve to fall back on when it's clear your half-hearted argument isn't working.

Well, I think we’re done for the night.

(It's different!)