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Forbes: Cousins' Confidence Level and Execution Must Improve in 2019

A place to discuss the MN Vikings
Dude
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Re: Forbes: Cousins' Confidence Level and Execution Must Improve in 2019

Post by Dude »

cunningham wrote: Thu May 30, 2019 9:39 am
Dude wrote: Thu May 30, 2019 8:29 am
cunningham wrote: Thu May 30, 2019 6:02 amThere are no more excuses though. None. Either Cousins plays like his paycheck or the paychecks from this team need to stop coming.
I think this is the part that continues to go over your head.

The paychecks aren't stopping for Cousins. That's what a "guaranteed contract" means. At what point do you stop pissing and moaning about water under the bridge and start looking at what they can/should/will do to improve this team over the next two seasons.

Everyone and their sister knows what the Vikings invested in Cousins. Everyone knows what's on the line.
The fewer times that Cousins throws, the fewer yards he has throwing, and the less we rely on him the better off this team will be. The more this team leans on Cousins the worse it gets. We must run the ball a whole hell of a lot more and not have Cousins throwing for over 250 yards in a game. He also shouldn't have more than about 40 attempts a game. We need to run the ball way more! If we run less than 20 times in a game and throw more than 40 we lose. Get the ball out of Cousin's hands and put it into our running back's. Hard to do that if you spot the other team a bunch of points early though.

Control the clock. If we can be on the + side of 30 minutes for TOP we should win the games.

3 and outs early and at the most crucial moments were the achilles heel of this team last season.
I'll do you one better and say that Cousins shouldn't be counted on to throw more than 30 times per game.

Zimmer wants to play a ball control offense, and the defense is built that way. They should be able to run the ball more often and more effectively than they did last year, but it just wasn't there. The passing game should be explosive, but it shouldn't be the focal point of the offense, at least the way the team's currently built.
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cunningham
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Re: Forbes: Cousins' Confidence Level and Execution Must Improve in 2019

Post by cunningham »

Dude wrote: Thu May 30, 2019 10:02 am
cunningham wrote: Thu May 30, 2019 9:39 am
Dude wrote: Thu May 30, 2019 8:29 am

I think this is the part that continues to go over your head.

The paychecks aren't stopping for Cousins. That's what a "guaranteed contract" means. At what point do you stop pissing and moaning about water under the bridge and start looking at what they can/should/will do to improve this team over the next two seasons.

Everyone and their sister knows what the Vikings invested in Cousins. Everyone knows what's on the line.
The fewer times that Cousins throws, the fewer yards he has throwing, and the less we rely on him the better off this team will be. The more this team leans on Cousins the worse it gets. We must run the ball a whole hell of a lot more and not have Cousins throwing for over 250 yards in a game. He also shouldn't have more than about 40 attempts a game. We need to run the ball way more! If we run less than 20 times in a game and throw more than 40 we lose. Get the ball out of Cousin's hands and put it into our running back's. Hard to do that if you spot the other team a bunch of points early though.

Control the clock. If we can be on the + side of 30 minutes for TOP we should win the games.

3 and outs early and at the most crucial moments were the achilles heel of this team last season.
I'll do you one better and say that Cousins shouldn't be counted on to throw more than 30 times per game.

Zimmer wants to play a ball control offense, and the defense is built that way. They should be able to run the ball more often and more effectively than they did last year, but it just wasn't there. The passing game should be explosive, but it shouldn't be the focal point of the offense, at least the way the team's currently built.
Hey, look at that, we agree! See, I made progress in my assessment.

40 attempts and less he went 8-2 (Seattle and Bears in December were the two losses with 20 attempts in each). When he went above 40 attempts the team went 0-5-1. Seattle is on record saying that they could predict what the Vikings would do from film study and they just put in 7, and all the way up to 9 defensive backs out there at some points. There was barely pressure put on Cousins at the line, but he also suffered a strip sack. Wilson was crap that day, but their defense shut this team down and got Flip fired. Stef comes in and Cousins had 21 and 28 attempts against Miami and Detroit. In the Bears loss Cousins had only 20 attempts passing and 15 attempts rushing. Our time of possession was 22:52 in that game.

The Bears plan is how you win games. Control the time of possession. It worked against our 1998 team to shut it down and it works today. The defense should not be let off the hook for the Chicago game either. Vikings were 1-11 on 3rd down.
Hector
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Re: Forbes: Cousins' Confidence Level and Execution Must Improve in 2019

Post by Hector »

Joe Bag 'O Donuts wrote: Thu May 30, 2019 8:46 am
Hector wrote: Thu May 30, 2019 7:53 am Chad Graff

@ChadGraff
Is there anything in OTAs or training camp that Mike Zimmer wants to see Kirk Cousins be better at? "With him," Zimmer said, "I don’t think it’s any of those things. It’s games – that’s where he’s got to play better.”

64
1:23 PM - Mar 26, 2019
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Zimmer just thinks he has to play better in games...no worries
Shocker. Great point Hector! You're arguing against no one!
There seems to be some resistance. I thought it completely relevant in a thread about execution that the head coach has called him out on it (more than once). Carry on.
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Re: Forbes: Cousins' Confidence Level and Execution Must Improve in 2019

Post by Joe Bag 'O Donuts »

Hector wrote: Thu May 30, 2019 10:52 am
Joe Bag 'O Donuts wrote: Thu May 30, 2019 8:46 am
Hector wrote: Thu May 30, 2019 7:53 am Chad Graff

@ChadGraff
Is there anything in OTAs or training camp that Mike Zimmer wants to see Kirk Cousins be better at? "With him," Zimmer said, "I don’t think it’s any of those things. It’s games – that’s where he’s got to play better.”

64
1:23 PM - Mar 26, 2019
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See Chad Graff's other Tweets

Zimmer just thinks he has to play better in games...no worries
Shocker. Great point Hector! You're arguing against no one!
There seems to be some resistance. I thought it completely relevant in a thread about execution that the head coach has called him out on it (more than once). Carry on.
Yeah, blistering stuff. Well done! Any other obvious sports notes that were brought up, or cliches you want to tell us about?
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salamander
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Re: Forbes: Cousins' Confidence Level and Execution Must Improve in 2019

Post by salamander »

Yup. Prove the stats are legit. That's what Cousins must do.
It's been 32 years since one of MN's four major sports teams has been to the Championship/Superbowl.
Every single year is failure until we win one. 4 teams, 32 years. That's roughly 128 consecutive failed seasons.
Hector
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Re: Forbes: Cousins' Confidence Level and Execution Must Improve in 2019

Post by Hector »

Joe Bag 'O Donuts wrote: Thu May 30, 2019 11:36 am
Hector wrote: Thu May 30, 2019 10:52 am
Joe Bag 'O Donuts wrote: Thu May 30, 2019 8:46 am

Shocker. Great point Hector! You're arguing against no one!
There seems to be some resistance. I thought it completely relevant in a thread about execution that the head coach has called him out on it (more than once). Carry on.
Yeah, blistering stuff. Well done! Any other obvious sports notes that were brought up, or cliches you want to tell us about?
What I posted is very relevant to the thread title.

If your boss thinks you can't be counted on when it matters is cliché to you, I feel sorry for your boss :thumbsup:
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Re: Forbes: Cousins' Confidence Level and Execution Must Improve in 2019

Post by Joe Bag 'O Donuts »

Hector wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 6:39 am
Joe Bag 'O Donuts wrote: Thu May 30, 2019 11:36 am
Hector wrote: Thu May 30, 2019 10:52 am

There seems to be some resistance. I thought it completely relevant in a thread about execution that the head coach has called him out on it (more than once). Carry on.
Yeah, blistering stuff. Well done! Any other obvious sports notes that were brought up, or cliches you want to tell us about?
What I posted is very relevant to the thread title.

If your boss thinks you can't be counted on when it matters is cliché to you, I feel sorry for your boss :thumbsup:
Oh, Zimmer said that too? Could you post that part? Thanks!
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twgerber
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Re: Forbes: Cousins' Confidence Level and Execution Must Improve in 2019

Post by twgerber »

Dude wrote: Thu May 30, 2019 9:20 am
Ash Ketchum wrote: Thu May 30, 2019 8:43 am People who are arguing against Cousins are bringing up reasons he isn’t elite, which is hilarious because literally no one is saying that, at least I’m not.
This. The typical argument seems to be that since they're paying him elite money he needs to provide elite results. That's not wrong in a vacuum, but when you look at free agency in the NFL (especially when applied to quarterbacks), it's not the case.

The Vikings paid the money to be settled at the quarterback spot. Cousins has always been an "above average"/tier 2 or 3 quarterback and that should have been the expectation. Whether or not you agree with the move is one thing, but to expect him to be an elite/top 5 quarterback means you're not paying attention.
Like what I said above too!
GM Spielman:
  • Record 62-48-2 (.559 winning %)
  • Playoffs 1-3
  • 7 years - reached playoffs 3 times.
  • Winner of the North 2 of last 4 years
Zimmer is 48-33-1
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Ash Ketchum
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Re: Forbes: Cousins' Confidence Level and Execution Must Improve in 2019

Post by Ash Ketchum »

In the 8 non-wins (7 losses and a tie), the Vikings gave up on average 29 points per game.

But yeah, the losses were all on Kirk.
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cunningham
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Re: Forbes: Cousins' Confidence Level and Execution Must Improve in 2019

Post by cunningham »

Ash Ketchum wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 7:38 am In the 8 non-wins (7 losses and a tie), the Vikings gave up on average 29 points per game.

But yeah, the losses were all on Kirk.
I guess we can't blame Kirk for anything here. Even when we are paying him the same salary as guys who win Super Bowls and have high expectations. We just paid him the same amount of money because we were desperate. So we overpaid and are stuck with him win, lose, or tie.

Love the statement that we just paid that money to solidify the position of quarterback. I don't think it is solidified yet and throwing money at problems never solved anything. Zimmer is right, put the "W" up and not the stats or looking good in practice. We must have more wins!

And Ash, this team went 1-11 on 3rd down against the Bears. You have to get first downs or you lose games. That is what I have been saying for months here. If you go 3 and out early you are not controlling time of possession (we were horrible overall in this stat last season) and you are going to wear your defense out.Your team has to go with the flow of the game. Otherwise the other team gets ahead in points and you are forced to abandon the run (our rushing stats were super low) and are forced to pass a ton (Cousins didn't win a game when he passed more than 40 times). Jump ahead to later in the game like the third quarter. 3rd down, team is down by a touchdown, and we can't even cross the 50 yards line. We get stopped, the other team gets the ball and goes down and scores. Now we are down by two touchdowns and Kirk starts to get a ton of yards. It is too late though. Our defense is gassed and we slowly lose. I watched that scenario unfold too often last season. We got one single solitary 1st down in a game at home, against a division rival, with the entire season on the line. That is pitiful.

Seattle just put out extra DBs and barely even pressured Kirk, so really this whole offensive line being the sole reason we were horrible isn't totally true. Kirk needs some of the blame.

We are a good team, but if we do not get first downs early and consistently control the time of possession we are dead in the water. Zimmer knows this and said to Cousins that practice doesn't matter. He must win games. Stats don't matter (except maybe for stuff in the contract). Super Bowls have been won with quarterbacks who have no where near the stats that Kirk has.
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Beef Supreme
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Re: Forbes: Cousins' Confidence Level and Execution Must Improve in 2019

Post by Beef Supreme »

Ash Ketchum wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 7:38 am In the 8 non-wins (7 losses and a tie), the Vikings gave up on average 29 points per game.

But yeah, the losses were all on Kirk.
This is just silly. Turnovers, lack of first downs, lack of clock control, etc. are all factors that the offense control that affect points given up.


And yes, the reverse is true for defensive factors and points scored for you.


But the QB is the leadership spot on the team and will always be judged by wins/losses more than, say, a cornerback. And, he’s by far the highest paid player on the team. It’s going to fall on his shoulders. Good or bad. So far, it’s not all that good and Cousins needs to play better.
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Dude
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Re: Forbes: Cousins' Confidence Level and Execution Must Improve in 2019

Post by Dude »

Beef Supreme wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 8:29 am
Ash Ketchum wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 7:38 am In the 8 non-wins (7 losses and a tie), the Vikings gave up on average 29 points per game.

But yeah, the losses were all on Kirk.
This is just silly. Turnovers, lack of first downs, lack of clock control, etc. are all factors that the offense control that affect points given up.


And yes, the reverse is true for defensive factors and points scored for you.


But the QB is the leadership spot on the team and will always be judged by wins/losses more than, say, a cornerback. And, he’s by far the highest paid player on the team. It’s going to fall on his shoulders. Good or bad. So far, it’s not all that good and Cousins needs to play better.
Yes, Kirk needs to play better. So does the offensive line. They need production out of the running game.

To Abe's point, nobody is saying that Kirk was perfect and everything else failed. You're right, the quarterback is always going to be the face of the offense, but when you look big picture at the offense- was Cousins' play the cause or a symptom of a bigger problem? I think there's clearly an argument that his play was a symptom.
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Re: Forbes: Cousins' Confidence Level and Execution Must Improve in 2019

Post by Beef Supreme »

Dude wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 8:58 am
Beef Supreme wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 8:29 am
Ash Ketchum wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 7:38 am In the 8 non-wins (7 losses and a tie), the Vikings gave up on average 29 points per game.

But yeah, the losses were all on Kirk.
This is just silly. Turnovers, lack of first downs, lack of clock control, etc. are all factors that the offense control that affect points given up.


And yes, the reverse is true for defensive factors and points scored for you.


But the QB is the leadership spot on the team and will always be judged by wins/losses more than, say, a cornerback. And, he’s by far the highest paid player on the team. It’s going to fall on his shoulders. Good or bad. So far, it’s not all that good and Cousins needs to play better.
Yes, Kirk needs to play better. So does the offensive line. They need production out of the running game.

To Abe's point, nobody is saying that Kirk was perfect and everything else failed. You're right, the quarterback is always going to be the face of the offense, but when you look big picture at the offense- was Cousins' play the cause or a symptom of a bigger problem? I think there's clearly an argument that his play was a symptom.
And I’m sure he was a symptom of what went wrong in Washington too.

I don’t want him to be a symptom. He’s not paid to be a symptom. He’s paid to be the fucking cure.
“When stupidity is considered patriotism, it is unsafe to be intelligent.”

- Isaac Asimov
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cunningham
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Re: Forbes: Cousins' Confidence Level and Execution Must Improve in 2019

Post by cunningham »

Beef Supreme wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 9:02 am
Dude wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 8:58 am
Beef Supreme wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 8:29 am

This is just silly. Turnovers, lack of first downs, lack of clock control, etc. are all factors that the offense control that affect points given up.


And yes, the reverse is true for defensive factors and points scored for you.


But the QB is the leadership spot on the team and will always be judged by wins/losses more than, say, a cornerback. And, he’s by far the highest paid player on the team. It’s going to fall on his shoulders. Good or bad. So far, it’s not all that good and Cousins needs to play better.
Yes, Kirk needs to play better. So does the offensive line. They need production out of the running game.

To Abe's point, nobody is saying that Kirk was perfect and everything else failed. You're right, the quarterback is always going to be the face of the offense, but when you look big picture at the offense- was Cousins' play the cause or a symptom of a bigger problem? I think there's clearly an argument that his play was a symptom.
And I’m sure he was a symptom of what went wrong in Washington too.

I don’t want him to be a symptom. He’s not paid to be a symptom. He’s paid to be the fucking cure.
Amen. :clap:

This is the time to either show you have it or we need to move on. This isn't a rookie we just drafted that needs to develop and I sometimes wonder if some people are so used to that that they cannot move their expectations higher. Zimmer is right. Practice doesn't matter anymore for a veteran - it is games. Can he win the big ones? I think I read Kirk has never won on Monday Night Football in his career. His record against teams with winning records is low as well. Doesn't that mean he just isn't that good against winning teams - or good teams? That good teams can gameplan for him?

My complaining is more to offset the guys like Rube who are saying #Hoist and starting threads that make Cousins to be better than he is. I am still pissed off about how the season ended so I am not gonna paint a rosy picture this offseason. I agree with Zimmer, practice, OTAs don't mean anything at this point. It is all about winning games. Getting first downs. Controlling the clock.
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Re: Forbes: Cousins' Confidence Level and Execution Must Improve in 2019

Post by Joe Bag 'O Donuts »

Beef Supreme wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 9:02 am
Dude wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 8:58 am
Beef Supreme wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 8:29 am

This is just silly. Turnovers, lack of first downs, lack of clock control, etc. are all factors that the offense control that affect points given up.


And yes, the reverse is true for defensive factors and points scored for you.


But the QB is the leadership spot on the team and will always be judged by wins/losses more than, say, a cornerback. And, he’s by far the highest paid player on the team. It’s going to fall on his shoulders. Good or bad. So far, it’s not all that good and Cousins needs to play better.
Yes, Kirk needs to play better. So does the offensive line. They need production out of the running game.

To Abe's point, nobody is saying that Kirk was perfect and everything else failed. You're right, the quarterback is always going to be the face of the offense, but when you look big picture at the offense- was Cousins' play the cause or a symptom of a bigger problem? I think there's clearly an argument that his play was a symptom.
And I’m sure he was a symptom of what went wrong in Washington too.

I don’t want him to be a symptom. He’s not paid to be a symptom. He’s paid to be the fucking cure.
He's paid what the market offered.
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Re: Forbes: Cousins' Confidence Level and Execution Must Improve in 2019

Post by Beef Supreme »

Joe Bag 'O Donuts wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 9:38 am
Beef Supreme wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 9:02 am
Dude wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 8:58 am

Yes, Kirk needs to play better. So does the offensive line. They need production out of the running game.

To Abe's point, nobody is saying that Kirk was perfect and everything else failed. You're right, the quarterback is always going to be the face of the offense, but when you look big picture at the offense- was Cousins' play the cause or a symptom of a bigger problem? I think there's clearly an argument that his play was a symptom.
And I’m sure he was a symptom of what went wrong in Washington too.

I don’t want him to be a symptom. He’s not paid to be a symptom. He’s paid to be the fucking cure.
He's paid what the market offered.
Agreed.

I could quibble details about the fully-guaranteed nature of the 3 year deal, but overall you’re pretty much right.


But that doesn’t mean it was a good signing.


I mean, Mike Remmers was paid what the market bore as well.
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Re: Forbes: Cousins' Confidence Level and Execution Must Improve in 2019

Post by Joe Bag 'O Donuts »

Beef Supreme wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 9:42 am
Joe Bag 'O Donuts wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 9:38 am
Beef Supreme wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 9:02 am

And I’m sure he was a symptom of what went wrong in Washington too.

I don’t want him to be a symptom. He’s not paid to be a symptom. He’s paid to be the fucking cure.
He's paid what the market offered.
Agreed.

I could quibble details about the fully-guaranteed nature of the 3 year deal, but overall you’re pretty much right.


But that doesn’t mean it was a good signing.


I mean, Mike Remmers was paid what the market bore as well.
If every QB in the NFL was a free agent that year, I'm sure you would agree, he wouldn't have been paid as the top QB, he probably would have been somewhere around 10-15, give or take. So, he was paid because he was the top option. This argument that he's paid to be a Top 3 QB is disingenuous.
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Re: Forbes: Cousins' Confidence Level and Execution Must Improve in 2019

Post by Beef Supreme »

Joe Bag 'O Donuts wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 9:49 am
Beef Supreme wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 9:42 am
Joe Bag 'O Donuts wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 9:38 am

He's paid what the market offered.
Agreed.

I could quibble details about the fully-guaranteed nature of the 3 year deal, but overall you’re pretty much right.


But that doesn’t mean it was a good signing.


I mean, Mike Remmers was paid what the market bore as well.
If every QB in the NFL was a free agent that year, I'm sure you would agree, he wouldn't have been paid as the top QB, he probably would have been somewhere around 10-15, give or take. So, he was paid because he was the top option. This argument that he's paid to be a Top 3 QB is disingenuous.
Maybe. But that’s not the argument.


The argument is that he’s paid to be the answer. He’s paid to overcome problems. He’s paid to be the guy who defies the odds and circumstances and pulls victory from the jaws of defeat. He wasn’t that guy last year. He throws a nice ball, but he isn’t a guy who turns chicken shit into chicken salad. And he’s paid to be that guy.

I don’t care about 5,000 yards and 40 touchdowns. Make the play to win the game when it’s on the line. He didn’t do much of that last year. He needs to this year.
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Re: Forbes: Cousins' Confidence Level and Execution Must Improve in 2019

Post by Joe Bag 'O Donuts »

Beef Supreme wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 9:53 am
Joe Bag 'O Donuts wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 9:49 am
Beef Supreme wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 9:42 am

Agreed.

I could quibble details about the fully-guaranteed nature of the 3 year deal, but overall you’re pretty much right.


But that doesn’t mean it was a good signing.


I mean, Mike Remmers was paid what the market bore as well.
If every QB in the NFL was a free agent that year, I'm sure you would agree, he wouldn't have been paid as the top QB, he probably would have been somewhere around 10-15, give or take. So, he was paid because he was the top option. This argument that he's paid to be a Top 3 QB is disingenuous.
Maybe. But that’s not the argument.


The argument is that he’s paid to be the answer. He’s paid to overcome problems. He’s paid to be the guy who defies the odds and circumstances and pulls victory from the jaws of defeat. He wasn’t that guy last year. He throws a nice ball, but he isn’t a guy who turns chicken shit into chicken salad. And he’s paid to be that guy.

I don’t care about 5,000 yards and 40 touchdowns. Make the play to win the game when it’s on the line. He didn’t do much of that last year. He needs to this year.
I disagree. He was paid because he was the best available answer during that FA period. He was not paid to produce like the top QB's. Derps look at raw numbers like that, but that doesn't account for the context of the market.
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Re: Forbes: Cousins' Confidence Level and Execution Must Improve in 2019

Post by Beef Supreme »

Joe Bag 'O Donuts wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 9:57 am
Beef Supreme wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 9:53 am
Joe Bag 'O Donuts wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 9:49 am

If every QB in the NFL was a free agent that year, I'm sure you would agree, he wouldn't have been paid as the top QB, he probably would have been somewhere around 10-15, give or take. So, he was paid because he was the top option. This argument that he's paid to be a Top 3 QB is disingenuous.
Maybe. But that’s not the argument.


The argument is that he’s paid to be the answer. He’s paid to overcome problems. He’s paid to be the guy who defies the odds and circumstances and pulls victory from the jaws of defeat. He wasn’t that guy last year. He throws a nice ball, but he isn’t a guy who turns chicken shit into chicken salad. And he’s paid to be that guy.

I don’t care about 5,000 yards and 40 touchdowns. Make the play to win the game when it’s on the line. He didn’t do much of that last year. He needs to this year.
I disagree. He was paid because he was the best available answer during that FA period. He was not paid to produce like the top QB's. Derps look at raw numbers like that, but that doesn't account for the context of the market.
So if he’s not brought in to put up big numbers and it’s not his fault for not making game-winning plays... why was he brought in again?

Neat haircut?
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Re: Forbes: Cousins' Confidence Level and Execution Must Improve in 2019

Post by cunningham »

Joe Bag 'O Donuts wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 9:49 am
Beef Supreme wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 9:42 am
Joe Bag 'O Donuts wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 9:38 am

He's paid what the market offered.
Agreed.

I could quibble details about the fully-guaranteed nature of the 3 year deal, but overall you’re pretty much right.


But that doesn’t mean it was a good signing.


I mean, Mike Remmers was paid what the market bore as well.
If every QB in the NFL was a free agent that year, I'm sure you would agree, he wouldn't have been paid as the top QB, he probably would have been somewhere around 10-15, give or take. So, he was paid because he was the top option. This argument that he's paid to be a Top 3 QB is disingenuous.
You are leaving out that Keenum was paid less and was ranked the #8 quarterback that season. Kirk was rated #20. We overpaid. Plain and simple. We are now stuck with that deal for two more years. That is why I am done with Spielman. That was the straw that broke this camel's back.

Or maybe this was the straw?
Spoiler:
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What also is interesting is that I get all sorts of crap for suggesting we draft a quarterback, but if the market is forcing you to overpay for someone not worth it why not take a shot? I mean you bring up Denver, Washington, etc and all of them have drafted a quarterback and moved on from the guys we signed. Yet here we are. Another retread, another offseason of hearing it was the offensive line, and another year of saying if Cousins can just make those stats into wins. Washington got tired of that. Funny here we are now in the same boat, but we gave Cousins that contract and locked him in.
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Beef Supreme
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Re: Forbes: Cousins' Confidence Level and Execution Must Improve in 2019

Post by Beef Supreme »

Something else needs to happen to talk about.

I’m getting a little tired of rehashing this same argument every time someone starts a Cousins thread...
“When stupidity is considered patriotism, it is unsafe to be intelligent.”

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Joe Bag 'O Donuts
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Re: Forbes: Cousins' Confidence Level and Execution Must Improve in 2019

Post by Joe Bag 'O Donuts »

Beef Supreme wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 10:00 am
Joe Bag 'O Donuts wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 9:57 am
Beef Supreme wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 9:53 am
Maybe. But that’s not the argument.


The argument is that he’s paid to be the answer. He’s paid to overcome problems. He’s paid to be the guy who defies the odds and circumstances and pulls victory from the jaws of defeat. He wasn’t that guy last year. He throws a nice ball, but he isn’t a guy who turns chicken shit into chicken salad. And he’s paid to be that guy.

I don’t care about 5,000 yards and 40 touchdowns. Make the play to win the game when it’s on the line. He didn’t do much of that last year. He needs to this year.
I disagree. He was paid because he was the best available answer during that FA period. He was not paid to produce like the top QB's. Derps look at raw numbers like that, but that doesn't account for the context of the market.
So if he’s not brought in to put up big numbers and it’s not his fault for not making game-winning plays... why was he brought in again?

Neat haircut?
He was brought in because the team determined he was the best free agent option. You can argue with that decision, or throw in hyperbole about a haircut, but that's a reflection of the team and the market.
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Re: Forbes: Cousins' Confidence Level and Execution Must Improve in 2019

Post by Joe Bag 'O Donuts »

cunningham wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 10:03 am
Joe Bag 'O Donuts wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 9:49 am
Beef Supreme wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 9:42 am

Agreed.

I could quibble details about the fully-guaranteed nature of the 3 year deal, but overall you’re pretty much right.


But that doesn’t mean it was a good signing.


I mean, Mike Remmers was paid what the market bore as well.
If every QB in the NFL was a free agent that year, I'm sure you would agree, he wouldn't have been paid as the top QB, he probably would have been somewhere around 10-15, give or take. So, he was paid because he was the top option. This argument that he's paid to be a Top 3 QB is disingenuous.
You are leaving out that Keenum was paid less and was ranked the #8 quarterback that season. Kirk was rated #20. We overpaid. Plain and simple. We are now stuck with that deal for two more years. That is why I am done with Spielman. That was the straw that broke this camel's back.

What also is interesting is that I get all sorts of crap for suggesting we draft a quarterback, but if the market is forcing you to overpay for someone not worth it why not take a shot? I mean you bring up Denver, Washington, etc and all of them have drafted a quarterback and moved on from the guys we signed. Yet here we are. Another retread, another offseason of hearing it was the offensive line, and another year of saying if Cousins can just make those stats into wins. Washington got tired of that. Funny here we are now in the same boat, but we gave Cousins that contract and locked him in.
No, I included that when I said Cousins was the best FA option. That was true then, and the team was right about that.
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Re: Forbes: Cousins' Confidence Level and Execution Must Improve in 2019

Post by cunningham »

Beef Supreme wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 10:16 am Something else needs to happen to talk about.

I’m getting a little tired of rehashing this same argument every time someone starts a Cousins thread...
How many days are we at now? This has been a depressing offseason. Seems thsi is the only thing to over analyze at this point, but we have went waaay too deep into it.

How about we talk about why Cook has been on the bench so often and if that will continue? Maybe throw in a little about the new runningback?

At least we got past the 10000000000 mock drafts and analysis of every player.

Beautiful day out though.

Here is a bone for the Cousins lovers - every TD from last season:

Click here to learn how to add YouTube Videos to your phpBB forum

Maybe some hope?
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Re: Forbes: Cousins' Confidence Level and Execution Must Improve in 2019

Post by Beef Supreme »

Joe Bag 'O Donuts wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 10:29 am
Beef Supreme wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 10:00 am
Joe Bag 'O Donuts wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 9:57 am

I disagree. He was paid because he was the best available answer during that FA period. He was not paid to produce like the top QB's. Derps look at raw numbers like that, but that doesn't account for the context of the market.
So if he’s not brought in to put up big numbers and it’s not his fault for not making game-winning plays... why was he brought in again?

Neat haircut?
He was brought in because the team determined he was the best free agent option. You can argue with that decision, or throw in hyperbole about a haircut, but that's a reflection of the team and the market.
Well no shit!


That’s not the debate. The debate is weather the team was right or wrong to bring him in at the contract they did.

Year one returns: They were wrong. Kirk needs to play better this year to change that.
“When stupidity is considered patriotism, it is unsafe to be intelligent.”

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Re: Forbes: Cousins' Confidence Level and Execution Must Improve in 2019

Post by Joe Bag 'O Donuts »

Beef Supreme wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 11:30 am
Joe Bag 'O Donuts wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 10:29 am
Beef Supreme wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 10:00 am
So if he’s not brought in to put up big numbers and it’s not his fault for not making game-winning plays... why was he brought in again?

Neat haircut?
He was brought in because the team determined he was the best free agent option. You can argue with that decision, or throw in hyperbole about a haircut, but that's a reflection of the team and the market.
Well no shit!


That’s not the debate. The debate is weather the team was right or wrong to bring him in at the contract they did.

Year one returns: They were wrong. Kirk needs to play better this year to change that.
You have a habit of choosing your debate, when I made a specific comment to you. You don't get to choose what quibble I have with your comment. You can answer my assertion and debate the issue I brought up.

He was paid what the market determined he get paid, he was not paid to contribute relative to how that dollar amount ranks him amongst other QB's because the market is not static. He was the best FA QB option out there, the Vikings decided that was true, and they were right.
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Re: Forbes: Cousins' Confidence Level and Execution Must Improve in 2019

Post by cunningham »

Joe Bag 'O Donuts wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 11:46 am
Beef Supreme wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 11:30 am
Joe Bag 'O Donuts wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 10:29 am

He was brought in because the team determined he was the best free agent option. You can argue with that decision, or throw in hyperbole about a haircut, but that's a reflection of the team and the market.
Well no shit!


That’s not the debate. The debate is weather the team was right or wrong to bring him in at the contract they did.

Year one returns: They were wrong. Kirk needs to play better this year to change that.
You have a habit of choosing your debate, when I made a specific comment to you. You don't get to choose what quibble I have with your comment. You can answer my assertion and debate the issue I brought up.

He was paid what the market determined he get paid, he was not paid to contribute relative to how that dollar amount ranks him amongst other QB's because the market is not static. He was the best FA QB option out there, the Vikings decided that was true, and they were right.
Finally a stance! So now we can know that you think the Vikings were right to pay him that money. Hopefully you are not in investment banking!

We were not told as fans this would be the return on our investment. Which is what makes me mad about RS. He told us this was the missing piece to the puzzle. We also were told that our new OC was big on Cousins. Did you know that Cousins was drafted the year after Ponder. We could have taken Cousins in Round 2, but there again is the philosophy of RS in that he doesn't want his franchise quarterback to get nervous about competition.

I would post the entire article, but I know Joe has reading issues so I will summarize for him:
Vikings' John DeFilippo and Kirk Cousins: a melding of the minds (STrib)
“I’ve always been a fan of Kirk’s,” DeFilippo said as he sat in his office May 25, with several neat stacks of papers and a can of Red Bull on his desk. “I don’t know the exact grade I gave him when he was coming out of college, but I know I liked him a lot. I’ll never forget that speech he gave at Michigan State. That was part of the evaluation process, just being like, ‘Wow, this guy’s really impressive.’ … Seeing the way he moves, the way he throws, I’ve always admired him from afar.”
So Flip liked how Kirk talked. Great way to choose your guy! He also helped in the selection - and there were others to consider....
DeFilippo called the Vikings’ quarterback search as thorough a process as he’s gone through. He would not name names, but said he evaluated more quarterbacks with coach Mike Zimmer, General Manager Rick Spielman and QB coach Kevin Stefanski than just Cousins and the Vikings’ three free agents.
Here is what Cousins said after Defillippo got canned:
"Myself, I'd be the first one to say, if I had played at a higher level, we're probably not talking about the things we're talking about. I take ownership, as well. Yet, big picture why? I don't know. I do point to the fact that we played at Chicago, who's a good defense. You saw what they did to the Rams. We played at Seattle and at New England, those aren't places you walk into as of late and just walk out with a win without breaking a sweat. Those are tough places to play, good teams. I'm sure there's a part of that, that you have to look at as well.

"You look at, 'What do I need to do better? How can I be better?' The nature of the quarterback position is that the ball is in your hands. So you're going to be easily able to say that so many times. That was one of the things I did communicate to Coach Flip yesterday was, I believe with the ball in my hand, had I played at my fullest potential play in and play out, we're probably not having this conversation right now. That's something I take personally and is certainly tough for me, and keeps you up at night. But at the same time, all you can do now is go forward and, you know, 'Hey, faced adversity before, been able to overcome it, been able to push through it.' As coach Shanahan always told me, 'Tough times don't last, tough people do.' I'm going to choose to be a tough person, keep going and believe if we do that, if I do that, good things are in store."
At least he admits in a way that he wasn't playing to his potential play in and play out... But why?

The article from CBS ends with this statement:
Cousins hasn't necessarily been bad this season, but he hasn't been all that much of an upgrade over Keenum -- if he's been one at all. Numbers-wise, he has been essentially the exact same guy Keenum was last year, but in an environment where quarterback play around the league has been better than it was a year ago.
Lastly Joe, and I doubt you get this far, but the article ends saying what everyone is saying:
Certainly, if he'd managed to be an upgrade on Keenum and had the Vikings ranking among the 10 best offenses in the league, DeFilippo would presumably still have his job. Some of the blame surely falls on both Cousins and DeFilippo, and some of it falls on the offensive line and the receivers and the backs as well. But a quarterback is pretty much always going to get the majority of the credit and blame for offensive performance, and Cousins seems to recognize that.
Last edited by cunningham on Fri May 31, 2019 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Joe Bag 'O Donuts
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Re: Forbes: Cousins' Confidence Level and Execution Must Improve in 2019

Post by Joe Bag 'O Donuts »

Wtf is that dribble. You think I took even a split second to read your on and on fantasy world? I'll just trust that nothing you said negates what I said. And I'll be right about that too.
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Re: Forbes: Cousins' Confidence Level and Execution Must Improve in 2019

Post by cunningham »

I feel like Forrest Gump after he had been running forever.

I think I am done talking about Kirk Cousins. I’ve said everything I can say and now it is time for him to put up or shut up. My prediction is that we make the playoffs and go one and done. Then we will sit through the next offseason talking about how he improved. How he needs another year. Damn Spielman will probably extend him.

This mediocrity is frustrating. Maybe 4-5 years from now we will realize what a waste of time this was. Shoulda drafted a quarterback. Instead we will overpay for a guy who will do exactly what some rookie could have done for cheap.
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