KDC: Most pressured QB in 2018

[RubeTube]

And he still put up HISTORIC #'s

Read it and weep, haters!

https://thevikingage.com/2019/05/08/min ... -2018/amp/

[Beef Supreme]

What are his numbers when pressured?

[silverjoel]

False. Cousins was not the most pressured QB. I'll let all of you surely "objective" Cousins fans figure out why.

[cunningham]

PFF has a different take:

PFF shares concerning numbers for Kirk Cousins when under pressure

https://clutchpoints.com/vikings-news-p ... -pressure/

It doesn’t take a mathematical genius to realize how drastic of a drop that Cousins has had in that category, going from one of the best in the NFL to one of the worst in the NFL when hurried.

and:

Philip Rivers was the most pressured quarterback in the NFL during 2018

https://chargerswire.usatoday.com/2019/ ... ring-2018/

[Ash Ketchum]

Without more context, I’m not sure this is as telling of a stat as it’s meant to be.

Cousins was #4 in the NFL in passing attempts with 606 attempts. He had almost 200 more attempts than the likes of Wilson, Newton and Trubisky.

[Joe Bag 'O Donuts]

Check out @PFF’s Tweet:

These are the numbers, and percentage, to satisfy Ash, and allow Joel to modify his attack. Or, you can pay attention to Cunningham's middle of the season troll.

[Beef Supreme]

Check out @PFF’s Tweet:

These are the numbers, and percentage, to satisfy Ash, and allow Joel to modify his attack. Or, you can pay attention to Cunningham's middle of the season troll.

Even that needs context.

We couldn't run much, so we had to pass and were in a lot of obvious passing down-and-distance situations. That leads to pressure even when you have a good OL.

And pressure makes it sound like the quarterback is a victim of the circumstances. Sometimes it's his own fault for holding the ball too long, not reading the blitz, not making the pre-snap adjustments or audibles.

I don't know the ins and outs of those variables or whether they'd somewhat excuse or further indict Cousins here. Just throwing them out there.

[Joe Bag 'O Donuts]

Check out @PFF’s Tweet:

These are the numbers, and percentage, to satisfy Ash, and allow Joel to modify his attack. Or, you can pay attention to Cunningham's middle of the season troll.

Even that needs context.

We couldn't run much, so we had to pass and were in a lot of obvious passing down-and-distance situations. That leads to pressure even when you have a good OL.

And pressure makes it sound like the quarterback is a victim of the circumstances. Sometimes it's his own fault for holding the ball too long, not reading the blitz, not making the pre-snap adjustments or audibles.

I don't know the ins and outs of those variables or whether they'd somewhat excuse or further indict Cousins here. Just throwing them out there.

You can find context for every QB. This is a number, it's all encompassing for each QB. Unless you want to break it down for each one, in order to lessen this particular stat for our QB, it is what it is.

[RubeTube]

Check out @PFF’s Tweet:

These are the numbers, and percentage, to satisfy Ash, and allow Joel to modify his attack. Or, you can pay attention to Cunningham's middle of the season troll.

Damn! That boy can ball!

People don't understand how good Kirk was last year. I wasn't the biggest fan of him in Washington but he really exceeded my expectations in 2018. I really don't know how anyone could complain.

There were many other reasons we didn't make the playoffs. One being the HC that everyone around here wants to treat like he's Bud Grant.

[Beef Supreme]

Check out @PFF’s Tweet:

These are the numbers, and percentage, to satisfy Ash, and allow Joel to modify his attack. Or, you can pay attention to Cunningham's middle of the season troll.

Even that needs context.

We couldn't run much, so we had to pass and were in a lot of obvious passing down-and-distance situations. That leads to pressure even when you have a good OL.

And pressure makes it sound like the quarterback is a victim of the circumstances. Sometimes it's his own fault for holding the ball too long, not reading the blitz, not making the pre-snap adjustments or audibles.

I don't know the ins and outs of those variables or whether they'd somewhat excuse or further indict Cousins here. Just throwing them out there.

You can find context for every QB. This is a number, it's all encompassing for each QB. Unless you want to break it down for each one, in order to lessen this particular stat for our QB, it is what it is.

I know. Grain of salt. There's only so much analysis we Froobs can do...

[Joe Bag 'O Donuts]

Even that needs context.

We couldn't run much, so we had to pass and were in a lot of obvious passing down-and-distance situations. That leads to pressure even when you have a good OL.

And pressure makes it sound like the quarterback is a victim of the circumstances. Sometimes it's his own fault for holding the ball too long, not reading the blitz, not making the pre-snap adjustments or audibles.

I don't know the ins and outs of those variables or whether they'd somewhat excuse or further indict Cousins here. Just throwing them out there.

You can find context for every QB. This is a number, it's all encompassing for each QB. Unless you want to break it down for each one, in order to lessen this particular stat for our QB, it is what it is.

I know. Grain of salt. There's only so much analysis we Froobs can do...

True.

[Ash Ketchum]

If people are objectively judging Cousins, I don’t know how you can come to any conclusions except:

He was clearly better than anything we’ve had at the position in the last decade, but still had plenty of moments where you wonder about him.

The key will be to have the OL, playcalling and run/pass balance improved so we can see if the negative parts of Cousins’ 2018 season were indeed due to his inability or were they because of circumstance.

[Joe Bag 'O Donuts]

If people are objectively judging Cousins, I don’t know how you can come to any conclusions except:

He was clearly better than anything we’ve had at the position in the last decade, but still had plenty of moments where you wonder about him.

The key will be to have the OL, playcalling and run/pass balance improved so we can see if the negative parts of Cousins’ 2018 season were indeed due to his inability or were they because of circumstance.

Yes. This.

[Beef Supreme]

If people are objectively judging Cousins, I don’t know how you can come to any conclusions except:

He was clearly better than anything we’ve had at the position in the last decade, but still had plenty of moments where you wonder about him.

The key will be to have the OL, playcalling and run/pass balance improved so we can see if the negative parts of Cousins’ 2018 season were indeed due to his inability or were they because of circumstance.

Yes. This.

Absolutely.

[PurpleFloyd]

Check out @PFF’s Tweet:

These are the numbers, and percentage, to satisfy Ash, and allow Joel to modify his attack. Or, you can pay attention to Cunningham's middle of the season troll.

Damn! That boy can ball!

People don't understand how good Kirk was last year. I wasn't the biggest fan of him in Washington but he really exceeded my expectations in 2018. I really don't know how anyone could complain.

There were many other reasons we didn't make the playoffs. One being the HC that everyone around here wants to treat like he's Bud Grant.

I agree 100% on the comments about Zimmer. He was largely responsible for the team not looking prepared

[cunningham]

If people are objectively judging Cousins, I don’t know how you can come to any conclusions except:

He was clearly better than anything we’ve had at the position in the last decade, but still had plenty of moments where you wonder about him.

The key will be to have the OL, playcalling and run/pass balance improved so we can see if the negative parts of Cousins’ 2018 season were indeed due to his inability or were they because of circumstance.

Yes. This.

Absolutely.

I agree with the last paragraph. I don’t agree that he was the best quarterback we have seen here in 10 years from what I saw last year. He has a ton to prove to me. Not yards, not stats, not stupid sayings... He needs to prove he can change the game when it matters. That he can stick it out when the moments are toughest. He needs to be a leader on the field.

Show me that.

Start fast. That is the key. Score early. We need to Run the ball. Don’t gas the defense because you pissed away the game early.

He was erratic and missed reads a ton. They were predictable and he looked lost. Run, run, run!

Kubiak and Dennison with Stefanski is as good as we have seen for a long time.

[Joe Bag 'O Donuts]

Yes. This.

Absolutely.

I agree with the last paragraph. I don’t agree that he was the best quarterback we have seen here in 10 years from what I saw last year. He has a ton to prove to me. Not yards, not stats, not stupid sayings... He needs to prove he can change the game when it matters. That he can stick it out when the moments are toughest. He needs to be a leader on the field.

Show me that.

Start fast. That is the key. Score early. We need to Run the ball. Don’t gas the defense because you pissed away the game early.

He was erratic and missed reads a ton. They were predictable and he looked lost. Run, run, run!

Kubiak and Dennison with Stefanski is as good as we have seen for a long time.

Which is exactly why you don't fit the first paragraph.

[Ash Ketchum]

Yes. This.

Absolutely.

I agree with the last paragraph. I don’t agree that he was the best quarterback we have seen here in 10 years from what I saw last year. He has a ton to prove to me. Not yards, not stats, not stupid sayings... He needs to prove he can change the game when it matters. That he can stick it out when the moments are toughest. He needs to be a leader on the field.

Show me that.

Start fast. That is the key. Score early. We need to Run the ball. Don’t gas the defense because you pissed away the game early.

He was erratic and missed reads a ton. They were predictable and he looked lost. Run, run, run!

Kubiak and Dennison with Stefanski is as good as we have seen for a long time.

Right, but the statement is more of an indictment on what we’ve had at QB since Favre, not me over-praising Cousins.

Everything you say about him is true. There are questions to be answered.

But do people remember all those years before 2018 where the typical Vikings game would feature a half a dozen three in outs in a row and a massive struggle to pass for 200 yards and even a single passing TD?

Yes, Cousins turned the ball over and the passing game wasn’t always good in big moments, but that’s on the entire offense.

With Cousins at QB, at least the passing game had the quality in them to move the ball pretty consistently. When your passing game struggles to top 3,000 passing all season, it really makes it hard to score enough points to win a lot of games.

The defense has carried this team through the Jackson, Ponder, Teddy, Keenum years, and while Keenum had a magical 2017, he predictably regressed back to normal in 2018.

If the defense can be somewhat close to what they have been, and the offensive line can be improved which will help the run game, which will help the play action pass, I want to see Cousins perform.

Jared Goff just went to the Super Bowl. Matt Ryan a year before that. Both could have easily won. Cousins is at or not far off from that tier of QB, and if he got the same help as those QBs did in terms of playcalling (McVay and Shanahan) and running games, I personally think he could reach similar heights.

[Beef Supreme]

Absolutely.

I agree with the last paragraph. I don’t agree that he was the best quarterback we have seen here in 10 years from what I saw last year. He has a ton to prove to me. Not yards, not stats, not stupid sayings... He needs to prove he can change the game when it matters. That he can stick it out when the moments are toughest. He needs to be a leader on the field.

Show me that.

Start fast. That is the key. Score early. We need to Run the ball. Don’t gas the defense because you pissed away the game early.

He was erratic and missed reads a ton. They were predictable and he looked lost. Run, run, run!

Kubiak and Dennison with Stefanski is as good as we have seen for a long time.

Right, but the statement is more of an indictment on what we’ve had at QB since Favre, not me over-praising Cousins.

Everything you say about him is true. There are questions to be answered.

But do people remember all those years before 2018 where the typical Vikings game would feature a half a dozen three in outs in a row and a massive struggle to pass for 200 yards and even a single passing TD?

Yes, Cousins turned the ball over and the passing game wasn’t always good in big moments, but that’s on the entire offense.

With Cousins at QB, at least the passing game had the quality in them to move the ball pretty consistently. When your passing game struggles to top 3,000 passing all season, it really makes it hard to score enough points to win a lot of games.

The defense has carried this team through the Jackson, Ponder, Teddy, Keenum years, and while Keenum had a magical 2017, he predictably regressed back to normal in 2018.

If the defense can be somewhat close to what they have been, and the offensive line can be improved which will help the run game, which will help the play action pass, I want to see Cousins perform.

Jared Goff just went to the Super Bowl. Matt Ryan a year before that. Both could have easily won. Cousins is at or not far off from that tier of QB, and if he got the same help as those QBs did in terms of playcalling (McVay and Shanahan) and running games, I personally think he could reach similar heights.

Right. Saying "the best QB since Favre" is almost damning with faint praise.

McNabb, Freeman, Ponder, Bridgewater, Cassel, Bradford... not exactly Montana into Young...


To me, it still always comes back to the contract. He's a good quarterback on a great quarterback's contract. I know the cap goes up and more mediocre QBs will get even bigger contracts in the meantime... but since the contract is only 3 years, that's small comfort. If he plays well (has two more 4,000 yard, 30TD seasons; not unreasonable), he'll be due for a new contract, probably close to $40M/per in 2021. Do we give him that?

The contract would be better if it were a 5 year-deal with the last couple years non-guaranteed or only minimally guaranteed. Team control, but able to void without severe penalty if we want to move on. That way, by that time a lot of QBs will have passed him and his deal would be commensurate with the level of QB that he is. But instead, just as his contract approaches a reasonable level, we'll have to sign him to another mega-deal. It was a great contract for him. Kudos to his agent. Not so good for us. We're not getting those team option, market-reasonable years at the end.

I've been impressed that the Vikes have only lost Richardson (of the players that matter) this off-season. I was afraid it would be worse. It would have been if Barr had not come back for less. Can't count on that, but I'll take it when we can get it. However, they don't have enough cap space to sign Garrett Bradbury yet. I think they could make room with a mild restructure somewhere, but if they did lose another starter to the cap, it would be very disappointing. Cousins is a good quarterback, but he's not the kind of talent that you reshape your roster for. But that's clearly what the Vikings have done. He won the draft. He got two lineman, a RB, and a TE. Four players that can block for him! Two of them can be outlets for him when he's under pressure. We went away from defense in the draft for the first time in the Zimmer era. We let a quality defensive starter go in FA because we couldn't afford him. All this for a guy who's never won more than 9 games in a season and is a career big-game choker. That's a hell of a gamble and it better pay off.

I'm not all doom and gloom, though. This team should be perfect for Cousins. The defense should still be strong, and will benefit from an improved offense if that offense is indeed improved. Is the OL fix "too little too late" or is it "better late than never?" We'll see. But it has to be better than last year, right? Hopefully Stefanski/Kubiak/Dennison are better than DiFilipo was last year, but most of us were ga-ga over the DeFililpo hire last year, so I'm inclined to pump the brakes until I see it happen, but Kubiak is very proven and it's reasonable to assume some success here. Diggs is back. Theilen is back and should be very happy with his new contract. Elflein is healthy. Cook is not coming off a torn ACL this year. Rudolph is still here (for now) and I think makes a very nice tandem with Smith. I see them complimenting each other well, not Smith replacing Rudolph. Can a still good, though maybe not great defense hold teams below what this Cousins/Dennison led and re-worked OL/Diggs&Theilen/Cook&Mattison/Rudolph&Smith offense can score? If Cousins can't win 11 games with this roster (barring catastrophic injuries), what good is he? I guess that's a long way of saying "the pieces are in place." Can Cousins guide this team the same way ol' #4 did?

That's a hell of a question...

[cunningham]

I agree with the last paragraph. I don’t agree that he was the best quarterback we have seen here in 10 years from what I saw last year. He has a ton to prove to me. Not yards, not stats, not stupid sayings... He needs to prove he can change the game when it matters. That he can stick it out when the moments are toughest. He needs to be a leader on the field.

Show me that.

Start fast. That is the key. Score early. We need to Run the ball. Don’t gas the defense because you pissed away the game early.

He was erratic and missed reads a ton. They were predictable and he looked lost. Run, run, run!

Kubiak and Dennison with Stefanski is as good as we have seen for a long time.

Right, but the statement is more of an indictment on what we’ve had at QB since Favre, not me over-praising Cousins.

Everything you say about him is true. There are questions to be answered.

But do people remember all those years before 2018 where the typical Vikings game would feature a half a dozen three in outs in a row and a massive struggle to pass for 200 yards and even a single passing TD?

Yes, Cousins turned the ball over and the passing game wasn’t always good in big moments, but that’s on the entire offense.

With Cousins at QB, at least the passing game had the quality in them to move the ball pretty consistently. When your passing game struggles to top 3,000 passing all season, it really makes it hard to score enough points to win a lot of games.

The defense has carried this team through the Jackson, Ponder, Teddy, Keenum years, and while Keenum had a magical 2017, he predictably regressed back to normal in 2018.

If the defense can be somewhat close to what they have been, and the offensive line can be improved which will help the run game, which will help the play action pass, I want to see Cousins perform.

Jared Goff just went to the Super Bowl. Matt Ryan a year before that. Both could have easily won. Cousins is at or not far off from that tier of QB, and if he got the same help as those QBs did in terms of playcalling (McVay and Shanahan) and running games, I personally think he could reach similar heights.

Right. Saying "the best QB since Favre" is almost damning with faint praise.

McNabb, Freeman, Ponder, Bridgewater, Cassel, Bradford... not exactly Montana into Young...


To me, it still always comes back to the contract. He's a good quarterback on a great quarterback's contract. I know the cap goes up and more mediocre QBs will get even bigger contracts in the meantime... but since the contract is only 3 years, that's small comfort. If he plays well (has two more 4,000 yard, 30TD seasons; not unreasonable), he'll be due for a new contract, probably close to $40M/per in 2021. Do we give him that?

The contract would be better if it were a 5 year-deal with the last couple years non-guaranteed or only minimally guaranteed. Team control, but able to void without severe penalty if we want to move on. That way, by that time a lot of QBs will have passed him and his deal would be commensurate with the level of QB that he is. But instead, just as his contract approaches a reasonable level, we'll have to sign him to another mega-deal. It was a great contract for him. Kudos to his agent. Not so good for us. We're not getting those team option, market-reasonable years at the end.

I've been impressed that the Vikes have only lost Richardson (of the players that matter) this off-season. I was afraid it would be worse. It would have been if Barr had not come back for less. Can't count on that, but I'll take it when we can get it. However, they don't have enough cap space to sign Garrett Bradbury yet. I think they could make room with a mild restructure somewhere, but if they did lose another starter to the cap, it would be very disappointing. Cousins is a good quarterback, but he's not the kind of talent that you reshape your roster for. But that's clearly what the Vikings have done. He won the draft. He got two lineman, a RB, and a TE. Four players that can block for him! Two of them can be outlets for him when he's under pressure. We went away from defense in the draft for the first time in the Zimmer era. We let a quality defensive starter go in FA because we couldn't afford him. All this for a guy who's never won more than 9 games in a season and is a career big-game choker. That's a hell of a gamble and it better pay off.

I'm not all doom and gloom, though. This team should be perfect for Cousins. The defense should still be strong, and will benefit from an improved offense if that offense is indeed improved. Is the OL fix "too little too late" or is it "better late than never?" We'll see. But it has to be better than last year, right? Hopefully Stefanski/Kubiak/Dennison are better than DiFilipo was last year, but most of us were ga-ga over the DeFililpo hire last year, so I'm inclined to pump the brakes until I see it happen, but Kubiak is very proven and it's reasonable to assume some success here. Diggs is back. Theilen is back and should be very happy with his new contract. Elflein is healthy. Cook is not coming off a torn ACL this year. Rudolph is still here (for now) and I think makes a very nice tandem with Smith. I see them complimenting each other well, not Smith replacing Rudolph. Can a still good, though maybe not great defense hold teams below what this Cousins/Dennison led and re-worked OL/Diggs&Theilen/Cook&Mattison/Rudolph&Smith offense can score? If Cousins can't win 11 games with this roster (barring catastrophic injuries), what good is he? I guess that's a long way of saying "the pieces are in place." Can Cousins guide this team the same way ol' #4 did?

That's a hell of a question...

Totally agree! You say it much better than I can. If we were paying Cousins middle of the road money it would be much better for the team. We got lucky this year that we were able to retain guys and keep this thing together, but the pressure is on. The next contract will be even bigger where we start to lose key people. I don't think that is fair to the rest of the team though. Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, or Brees are guys who can carry a less veteran team and so the value is there. Cousins needs a lot of other parts, so at some point you have to decide if he adds enough to lose some key pieces. I think Washington decided he wasn't. That is what scared me about him and still scares me about Cousins.

Cousins had McVay and Gruden in Washington. Kubiak and Dennison are good as well. Stefanski is kind of unknown as he only has called three games in his career. It feels like this offense that we see coming this year is better built foundationally than what we have had in several years. Signing these coaches really gives me the most hope of any offseason move.

We are a defense based system though. We need long drives, ball control, clock control, etc. Those dreaming for deep balls and lofty quarterback stats don't get it in my view. That isn't the philosophy of this team. IMHO.

[RubeTube]

Right, but the statement is more of an indictment on what we’ve had at QB since Favre, not me over-praising Cousins.

Everything you say about him is true. There are questions to be answered.

But do people remember all those years before 2018 where the typical Vikings game would feature a half a dozen three in outs in a row and a massive struggle to pass for 200 yards and even a single passing TD?

Yes, Cousins turned the ball over and the passing game wasn’t always good in big moments, but that’s on the entire offense.

With Cousins at QB, at least the passing game had the quality in them to move the ball pretty consistently. When your passing game struggles to top 3,000 passing all season, it really makes it hard to score enough points to win a lot of games.

The defense has carried this team through the Jackson, Ponder, Teddy, Keenum years, and while Keenum had a magical 2017, he predictably regressed back to normal in 2018.

If the defense can be somewhat close to what they have been, and the offensive line can be improved which will help the run game, which will help the play action pass, I want to see Cousins perform.

Jared Goff just went to the Super Bowl. Matt Ryan a year before that. Both could have easily won. Cousins is at or not far off from that tier of QB, and if he got the same help as those QBs did in terms of playcalling (McVay and Shanahan) and running games, I personally think he could reach similar heights.

Right. Saying "the best QB since Favre" is almost damning with faint praise.

McNabb, Freeman, Ponder, Bridgewater, Cassel, Bradford... not exactly Montana into Young...


To me, it still always comes back to the contract. He's a good quarterback on a great quarterback's contract. I know the cap goes up and more mediocre QBs will get even bigger contracts in the meantime... but since the contract is only 3 years, that's small comfort. If he plays well (has two more 4,000 yard, 30TD seasons; not unreasonable), he'll be due for a new contract, probably close to $40M/per in 2021. Do we give him that?

The contract would be better if it were a 5 year-deal with the last couple years non-guaranteed or only minimally guaranteed. Team control, but able to void without severe penalty if we want to move on. That way, by that time a lot of QBs will have passed him and his deal would be commensurate with the level of QB that he is. But instead, just as his contract approaches a reasonable level, we'll have to sign him to another mega-deal. It was a great contract for him. Kudos to his agent. Not so good for us. We're not getting those team option, market-reasonable years at the end.

I've been impressed that the Vikes have only lost Richardson (of the players that matter) this off-season. I was afraid it would be worse. It would have been if Barr had not come back for less. Can't count on that, but I'll take it when we can get it. However, they don't have enough cap space to sign Garrett Bradbury yet. I think they could make room with a mild restructure somewhere, but if they did lose another starter to the cap, it would be very disappointing. Cousins is a good quarterback, but he's not the kind of talent that you reshape your roster for. But that's clearly what the Vikings have done. He won the draft. He got two lineman, a RB, and a TE. Four players that can block for him! Two of them can be outlets for him when he's under pressure. We went away from defense in the draft for the first time in the Zimmer era. We let a quality defensive starter go in FA because we couldn't afford him. All this for a guy who's never won more than 9 games in a season and is a career big-game choker. That's a hell of a gamble and it better pay off.

I'm not all doom and gloom, though. This team should be perfect for Cousins. The defense should still be strong, and will benefit from an improved offense if that offense is indeed improved. Is the OL fix "too little too late" or is it "better late than never?" We'll see. But it has to be better than last year, right? Hopefully Stefanski/Kubiak/Dennison are better than DiFilipo was last year, but most of us were ga-ga over the DeFililpo hire last year, so I'm inclined to pump the brakes until I see it happen, but Kubiak is very proven and it's reasonable to assume some success here. Diggs is back. Theilen is back and should be very happy with his new contract. Elflein is healthy. Cook is not coming off a torn ACL this year. Rudolph is still here (for now) and I think makes a very nice tandem with Smith. I see them complimenting each other well, not Smith replacing Rudolph. Can a still good, though maybe not great defense hold teams below what this Cousins/Dennison led and re-worked OL/Diggs&Theilen/Cook&Mattison/Rudolph&Smith offense can score? If Cousins can't win 11 games with this roster (barring catastrophic injuries), what good is he? I guess that's a long way of saying "the pieces are in place." Can Cousins guide this team the same way ol' #4 did?

That's a hell of a question...

Totally agree! You say it much better than I can. If we were paying Cousins middle of the road money it would be much better for the team. We got lucky this year that we were able to retain guys and keep this thing together, but the pressure is on. The next contract will be even bigger where we start to lose key people. I don't think that is fair to the rest of the team though. Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, or Brees are guys who can carry a less veteran team and so the value is there. Cousins needs a lot of other parts, so at some point you have to decide if he adds enough to lose some key pieces. I think Washington decided he wasn't. That is what scared me about him and still scares me about Cousins.

Cousins had McVay and Gruden in Washington. Kubiak and Dennison are good as well. Stefanski is kind of unknown as he only has called three games in his career. It feels like this offense that we see coming this year is better built foundationally than what we have had in several years. Signing these coaches really gives me the most hope of any offseason move.

We are a defense based system though. We need long drives, ball control, clock control, etc. Those dreaming for deep balls and lofty quarterback stats don't get it in my view. That isn't the philosophy of this team. IMHO.

So we are supposed to have some pud dick QB that throws for 125 yds and 1 td a game? Because of "Philosophy"

That's Mike Zimmers biggest problem. Why pay Diggs and Thielen all that money either. Zimmer wants to control games and win 17-13 when we finally have a good offense.

We should be putting up the points and still playing defense. It's 2019 not 1996.

[RubeTube]

I agree with the last paragraph. I don’t agree that he was the best quarterback we have seen here in 10 years from what I saw last year. He has a ton to prove to me. Not yards, not stats, not stupid sayings... He needs to prove he can change the game when it matters. That he can stick it out when the moments are toughest. He needs to be a leader on the field.

Show me that.

Start fast. That is the key. Score early. We need to Run the ball. Don’t gas the defense because you pissed away the game early.

He was erratic and missed reads a ton. They were predictable and he looked lost. Run, run, run!

Kubiak and Dennison with Stefanski is as good as we have seen for a long time.

Right, but the statement is more of an indictment on what we’ve had at QB since Favre, not me over-praising Cousins.

Everything you say about him is true. There are questions to be answered.

But do people remember all those years before 2018 where the typical Vikings game would feature a half a dozen three in outs in a row and a massive struggle to pass for 200 yards and even a single passing TD?

Yes, Cousins turned the ball over and the passing game wasn’t always good in big moments, but that’s on the entire offense.

With Cousins at QB, at least the passing game had the quality in them to move the ball pretty consistently. When your passing game struggles to top 3,000 passing all season, it really makes it hard to score enough points to win a lot of games.

The defense has carried this team through the Jackson, Ponder, Teddy, Keenum years, and while Keenum had a magical 2017, he predictably regressed back to normal in 2018.

If the defense can be somewhat close to what they have been, and the offensive line can be improved which will help the run game, which will help the play action pass, I want to see Cousins perform.

Jared Goff just went to the Super Bowl. Matt Ryan a year before that. Both could have easily won. Cousins is at or not far off from that tier of QB, and if he got the same help as those QBs did in terms of playcalling (McVay and Shanahan) and running games, I personally think he could reach similar heights.

Right. Saying "the best QB since Favre" is almost damning with faint praise.

McNabb, Freeman, Ponder, Bridgewater, Cassel, Bradford... not exactly Montana into Young...


To me, it still always comes back to the contract. He's a good quarterback on a great quarterback's contract. I know the cap goes up and more mediocre QBs will get even bigger contracts in the meantime... but since the contract is only 3 years, that's small comfort. If he plays well (has two more 4,000 yard, 30TD seasons; not unreasonable), he'll be due for a new contract, probably close to $40M/per in 2021. Do we give him that?

The contract would be better if it were a 5 year-deal with the last couple years non-guaranteed or only minimally guaranteed. Team control, but able to void without severe penalty if we want to move on. That way, by that time a lot of QBs will have passed him and his deal would be commensurate with the level of QB that he is. But instead, just as his contract approaches a reasonable level, we'll have to sign him to another mega-deal. It was a great contract for him. Kudos to his agent. Not so good for us. We're not getting those team option, market-reasonable years at the end.

I've been impressed that the Vikes have only lost Richardson (of the players that matter) this off-season. I was afraid it would be worse. It would have been if Barr had not come back for less. Can't count on that, but I'll take it when we can get it. However, they don't have enough cap space to sign Garrett Bradbury yet. I think they could make room with a mild restructure somewhere, but if they did lose another starter to the cap, it would be very disappointing. Cousins is a good quarterback, but he's not the kind of talent that you reshape your roster for. But that's clearly what the Vikings have done. He won the draft. He got two lineman, a RB, and a TE. Four players that can block for him! Two of them can be outlets for him when he's under pressure. We went away from defense in the draft for the first time in the Zimmer era. We let a quality defensive starter go in FA because we couldn't afford him. All this for a guy who's never won more than 9 games in a season and is a career big-game choker. That's a hell of a gamble and it better pay off.

I'm not all doom and gloom, though. This team should be perfect for Cousins. The defense should still be strong, and will benefit from an improved offense if that offense is indeed improved. Is the OL fix "too little too late" or is it "better late than never?" We'll see. But it has to be better than last year, right? Hopefully Stefanski/Kubiak/Dennison are better than DiFilipo was last year, but most of us were ga-ga over the DeFililpo hire last year, so I'm inclined to pump the brakes until I see it happen, but Kubiak is very proven and it's reasonable to assume some success here. Diggs is back. Theilen is back and should be very happy with his new contract. Elflein is healthy. Cook is not coming off a torn ACL this year. Rudolph is still here (for now) and I think makes a very nice tandem with Smith. I see them complimenting each other well, not Smith replacing Rudolph. Can a still good, though maybe not great defense hold teams below what this Cousins/Dennison led and re-worked OL/Diggs&Theilen/Cook&Mattison/Rudolph&Smith offense can score? If Cousins can't win 11 games with this roster (barring catastrophic injuries), what good is he? I guess that's a long way of saying "the pieces are in place." Can Cousins guide this team the same way ol' #4 did?

That's a hell of a question...

No shit it isn't "Montana into Young" This team hasnt had a QB as good as either in the history of the franchise. The Niners haven't had a good one since either.

[RubeTube]

In case people haven't realized, Mike Zimmer doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to offense.

I like Zimmer but i think he's better served as a D cord under a offensive HC in today's NFL.

Let's not forget this "Philosophy" netted Cousins two O cords in his first year here. Also 4 coordinators in 5 year's.

That's pathetic.

[cunningham]

In case people haven't realized, Mike Zimmer doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to offense.

I like Zimmer but i think he's better served as a D cord under a offensive HC in today's NFL.

Let's not forget this "Philosophy" netted Cousins two O cords in his first year here. Also 4 coordinators in 5 year's.

That's pathetic.

Turner quit when things went South. Zimmer was trying to pressure him and they butted heads. Turner left. Shurmur was a washed up coach before Keenum came in. Then he got a HC gig (he'll be gone in a few years), which isn't Zimmer's fault. He actually retained Stefanski, which was ballsy. Now we have Stefanski, Kubiak, Dennison, etc. Kubiak doesn't seem like he will stay long, but his son is with the team. Just like with Turner.

Zimmer does struggle as a HC, which explains the Kubiak move, but shows why Defillippo was a bad move. Zimmer didn't like the pissing match and didn't like that Flip thought how you think Sergeant Rubetube. He got fired and Stefanski knew what he had to do.

If you don't like close games that are built around ball control you are really gonna hate this team and Zimmer. That is what we have been doing since Childress came around. That is what defense teams do. We are a defense built team and have been for a long time. TB, Ravens, etc gave us this formula. Thank God we dropped the Cover-2! Zim's defense is a definite upgrade.

This all goes back to 1998 in my opinion. Denny Green could put up a million points, but his defenses were not that good. When TB gave the Vikings' their only loss of that 1998 season it was because of the Cover-2 and ball control. If your offense isn't on the field they cannot score. You shut down a high powered offense by keeping the ball out of their hands. That is what this team has been doing for years now. Cousins throwing for 4000+ yards is not a good thing when you are all about ball control, especially when your running game is non-existent. Flip got fired for not understanding that. You get the Rams game where it is a back and forth, but Cousins wasn't good enough to play that game and win. The defense is built to make the other team go three and out and then for our offense to not go three and out. The problem last season was that our offense went three and out too much. Our defense then had to defend too long and broke.

[RubeTube]

In case people haven't realized, Mike Zimmer doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to offense.

I like Zimmer but i think he's better served as a D cord under a offensive HC in today's NFL.

Let's not forget this "Philosophy" netted Cousins two O cords in his first year here. Also 4 coordinators in 5 year's.

That's pathetic.

Turner quit when things went South. Zimmer was trying to pressure him and they butted heads. Turner left. Shurmur was a washed up coach before Keenum came in. Then he got a HC gig (he'll be gone in a few years), which isn't Zimmer's fault. He actually retained Stefanski, which was ballsy. Now we have Stefanski, Kubiak, Dennison, etc. Kubiak doesn't seem like he will stay long, but his son is with the team. Just like with Turner.

Zimmer does struggle as a HC, which explains the Kubiak move, but shows why Defillippo was a bad move. Zimmer didn't like the pissing match and didn't like that Flip thought how you think Sergeant Rubetube. He got fired and Stefanski knew what he had to do.

If you don't like close games that are built around ball control you are really gonna hate this team and Zimmer. That is what we have been doing since Childress came around. That is what defense teams do. We are a defense built team and have been for a long time. TB, Ravens, etc gave us this formula. Thank God we dropped the Cover-2! Zim's defense is a definite upgrade.

This all goes back to 1998 in my opinion. Denny Green could put up a million points, but his defenses were not that good. When TB gave the Vikings' their only loss of that 1998 season it was because of the Cover-2 and ball control. If your offense isn't on the field they cannot score. You shut down a high powered offense by keeping the ball out of their hands. That is what this team has been doing for years now. Cousins throwing for 4000+ yards is not a good thing when you are all about ball control, especially when your running game is non-existent. Flip got fired for not understanding that. You get the Rams game where it is a back and forth, but Cousins wasn't good enough to play that game and win. The defense is built to make the other team go three and out and then for our offense to not go three and out. The problem last season was that our offense went three and out too much. Our defense then had to defend too long and broke.

Lol. Blaming Cousins for the Rams game. That game came down to who could get a stop first and we couldn't get one.

Let's not forget they had Gurley and China doll Cook played half of the first quarter and was done.

[Dude]

In case people haven't realized, Mike Zimmer doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to offense.

I like Zimmer but i think he's better served as a D cord under a offensive HC in today's NFL.

Let's not forget this "Philosophy" netted Cousins two O cords in his first year here. Also 4 coordinators in 5 year's.

That's pathetic.

Turner quit when things went South. Zimmer was trying to pressure him and they butted heads. Turner left. Shurmur was a washed up coach before Keenum came in. Then he got a HC gig (he'll be gone in a few years), which isn't Zimmer's fault. He actually retained Stefanski, which was ballsy. Now we have Stefanski, Kubiak, Dennison, etc. Kubiak doesn't seem like he will stay long, but his son is with the team. Just like with Turner.

Zimmer does struggle as a HC, which explains the Kubiak move, but shows why Defillippo was a bad move. Zimmer didn't like the pissing match and didn't like that Flip thought how you think Sergeant Rubetube. He got fired and Stefanski knew what he had to do.

If you don't like close games that are built around ball control you are really gonna hate this team and Zimmer. That is what we have been doing since Childress came around. That is what defense teams do. We are a defense built team and have been for a long time. TB, Ravens, etc gave us this formula. Thank God we dropped the Cover-2! Zim's defense is a definite upgrade.

This all goes back to 1998 in my opinion. Denny Green could put up a million points, but his defenses were not that good. When TB gave the Vikings' their only loss of that 1998 season it was because of the Cover-2 and ball control. If your offense isn't on the field they cannot score. You shut down a high powered offense by keeping the ball out of their hands. That is what this team has been doing for years now. Cousins throwing for 4000+ yards is not a good thing when you are all about ball control, especially when your running game is non-existent. Flip got fired for not understanding that. You get the Rams game where it is a back and forth, but Cousins wasn't good enough to play that game and win. The defense is built to make the other team go three and out and then for our offense to not go three and out. The problem last season was that our offense went three and out too much. Our defense then had to defend too long and broke.

Lol. Blaming Cousins for the Rams game. That game came down to who could get a stop first and we couldn't get one.

Let's not forget they had Gurley and China doll Cook played half of the first quarter and was done.

Cousins had a crucial fumble at the end of that game. That's a fact.

At the same time, he not only had one of his best passing games that day, but he also led the team in rushing (running for more yards than all other Vikings running backs combined) while the defense gave up 556 yards and 38 points...

...but yeah. Let's blame Cousins for the loss.

[cunningham]

In case people haven't realized, Mike Zimmer doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to offense.

I like Zimmer but i think he's better served as a D cord under a offensive HC in today's NFL.

Let's not forget this "Philosophy" netted Cousins two O cords in his first year here. Also 4 coordinators in 5 year's.

That's pathetic.

Turner quit when things went South. Zimmer was trying to pressure him and they butted heads. Turner left. Shurmur was a washed up coach before Keenum came in. Then he got a HC gig (he'll be gone in a few years), which isn't Zimmer's fault. He actually retained Stefanski, which was ballsy. Now we have Stefanski, Kubiak, Dennison, etc. Kubiak doesn't seem like he will stay long, but his son is with the team. Just like with Turner.

Zimmer does struggle as a HC, which explains the Kubiak move, but shows why Defillippo was a bad move. Zimmer didn't like the pissing match and didn't like that Flip thought how you think Sergeant Rubetube. He got fired and Stefanski knew what he had to do.

If you don't like close games that are built around ball control you are really gonna hate this team and Zimmer. That is what we have been doing since Childress came around. That is what defense teams do. We are a defense built team and have been for a long time. TB, Ravens, etc gave us this formula. Thank God we dropped the Cover-2! Zim's defense is a definite upgrade.

This all goes back to 1998 in my opinion. Denny Green could put up a million points, but his defenses were not that good. When TB gave the Vikings' their only loss of that 1998 season it was because of the Cover-2 and ball control. If your offense isn't on the field they cannot score. You shut down a high powered offense by keeping the ball out of their hands. That is what this team has been doing for years now. Cousins throwing for 4000+ yards is not a good thing when you are all about ball control, especially when your running game is non-existent. Flip got fired for not understanding that. You get the Rams game where it is a back and forth, but Cousins wasn't good enough to play that game and win. The defense is built to make the other team go three and out and then for our offense to not go three and out. The problem last season was that our offense went three and out too much. Our defense then had to defend too long and broke.

Lol. Blaming Cousins for the Rams game. That game came down to who could get a stop first and we couldn't get one.

Let's not forget they had Gurley and China doll Cook played half of the first quarter and was done.

I'm not "blaming" Kirk for that game. I am saying that was the epitome of Flip's philosophy playing out. Back and forth offense game. In that type of game we are not good enough on offense. We are not built to be that good on offense. I agree that Cook let this team down a ton last season. He has even more to prove in my mind than Cousins does and so taking a RB in the first few rounds was a godsend.

Offensively we are not good enough to get into a back and forth game like that. We need ball control and having Cook riding the pine didn't help. We didn't have Cook the year before and were fine though. The question is if Cousins can be a game managing quarterback who can just extend drives and get the first down at the most crucial moments? So far he hasn't been capable of doing that. He likes to look way down field, but he needs to just get the first down.

Some of that might have been Flip. There were a ton of third and shorts where we didn't just go QB sneak and didn't run. Hell, half the time I had completely given up on our running game because it was so awful. We had half the rushing attempts of the previous season.

At the end of every season if you don't have a running game it is over. The ability to pass as the December hits gets less and less. Look at the Super Bowl for example. You have to have a balanced running game to win in the playoffs.

[Dude]

Turner quit when things went South. Zimmer was trying to pressure him and they butted heads. Turner left. Shurmur was a washed up coach before Keenum came in. Then he got a HC gig (he'll be gone in a few years), which isn't Zimmer's fault. He actually retained Stefanski, which was ballsy. Now we have Stefanski, Kubiak, Dennison, etc. Kubiak doesn't seem like he will stay long, but his son is with the team. Just like with Turner.

Zimmer does struggle as a HC, which explains the Kubiak move, but shows why Defillippo was a bad move. Zimmer didn't like the pissing match and didn't like that Flip thought how you think Sergeant Rubetube. He got fired and Stefanski knew what he had to do.

If you don't like close games that are built around ball control you are really gonna hate this team and Zimmer. That is what we have been doing since Childress came around. That is what defense teams do. We are a defense built team and have been for a long time. TB, Ravens, etc gave us this formula. Thank God we dropped the Cover-2! Zim's defense is a definite upgrade.

This all goes back to 1998 in my opinion. Denny Green could put up a million points, but his defenses were not that good. When TB gave the Vikings' their only loss of that 1998 season it was because of the Cover-2 and ball control. If your offense isn't on the field they cannot score. You shut down a high powered offense by keeping the ball out of their hands. That is what this team has been doing for years now. Cousins throwing for 4000+ yards is not a good thing when you are all about ball control, especially when your running game is non-existent. Flip got fired for not understanding that. You get the Rams game where it is a back and forth, but Cousins wasn't good enough to play that game and win. The defense is built to make the other team go three and out and then for our offense to not go three and out. The problem last season was that our offense went three and out too much. Our defense then had to defend too long and broke.

Lol. Blaming Cousins for the Rams game. That game came down to who could get a stop first and we couldn't get one.

Let's not forget they had Gurley and China doll Cook played half of the first quarter and was done.

I'm not "blaming" Kirk for that game. I am saying that was the epitome of Flip's philosophy playing out. Back and forth offense game. In that type of game we are not good enough on offense. We are not built to be that good on offense. I agree that Cook let this team down a ton last season. He has even more to prove in my mind than Cousins does and so taking a RB in the first few rounds was a godsend.

Offensively we are not good enough to get into a back and forth game like that. We need ball control and having Cook riding the pine didn't help. We didn't have Cook the year before and were fine though. The question is if Cousins can be a game managing quarterback who can just extend drives and get the first down at the most crucial moments? So far he hasn't been capable of doing that. He likes to look way down field, but he needs to just get the first down.

Some of that might have been Flip. There were a ton of third and shorts where we didn't just go QB sneak and didn't run. Hell, half the time I had completely given up on our running game because it was so awful. We had half the rushing attempts of the previous season.

At the end of every season if you don't have a running game it is over. The ability to pass as the December hits gets less and less. Look at the Super Bowl for example. You have to have a balanced running game to win in the playoffs.

Then what do you mean by this?

Cousins wasn't good enough to play that game and win.

Clearly Cousins was good enough in that game.

[Joe Bag 'O Donuts]

Turner quit when things went South. Zimmer was trying to pressure him and they butted heads. Turner left. Shurmur was a washed up coach before Keenum came in. Then he got a HC gig (he'll be gone in a few years), which isn't Zimmer's fault. He actually retained Stefanski, which was ballsy. Now we have Stefanski, Kubiak, Dennison, etc. Kubiak doesn't seem like he will stay long, but his son is with the team. Just like with Turner.

Zimmer does struggle as a HC, which explains the Kubiak move, but shows why Defillippo was a bad move. Zimmer didn't like the pissing match and didn't like that Flip thought how you think Sergeant Rubetube. He got fired and Stefanski knew what he had to do.

If you don't like close games that are built around ball control you are really gonna hate this team and Zimmer. That is what we have been doing since Childress came around. That is what defense teams do. We are a defense built team and have been for a long time. TB, Ravens, etc gave us this formula. Thank God we dropped the Cover-2! Zim's defense is a definite upgrade.

This all goes back to 1998 in my opinion. Denny Green could put up a million points, but his defenses were not that good. When TB gave the Vikings' their only loss of that 1998 season it was because of the Cover-2 and ball control. If your offense isn't on the field they cannot score. You shut down a high powered offense by keeping the ball out of their hands. That is what this team has been doing for years now. Cousins throwing for 4000+ yards is not a good thing when you are all about ball control, especially when your running game is non-existent. Flip got fired for not understanding that. You get the Rams game where it is a back and forth, but Cousins wasn't good enough to play that game and win. The defense is built to make the other team go three and out and then for our offense to not go three and out. The problem last season was that our offense went three and out too much. Our defense then had to defend too long and broke.

Lol. Blaming Cousins for the Rams game. That game came down to who could get a stop first and we couldn't get one.

Let's not forget they had Gurley and China doll Cook played half of the first quarter and was done.

I'm not "blaming" Kirk for that game. I am saying that was the epitome of Flip's philosophy playing out. Back and forth offense game. In that type of game we are not good enough on offense. We are not built to be that good on offense. I agree that Cook let this team down a ton last season. He has even more to prove in my mind than Cousins does and so taking a RB in the first few rounds was a godsend.

Offensively we are not good enough to get into a back and forth game like that. We need ball control and having Cook riding the pine didn't help. We didn't have Cook the year before and were fine though. The question is if Cousins can be a game managing quarterback who can just extend drives and get the first down at the most crucial moments? So far he hasn't been capable of doing that. He likes to look way down field, but he needs to just get the first down.

Some of that might have been Flip. There were a ton of third and shorts where we didn't just go QB sneak and didn't run. Hell, half the time I had completely given up on our running game because it was so awful. We had half the rushing attempts of the previous season.

At the end of every season if you don't have a running game it is over. The ability to pass as the December hits gets less and less. Look at the Super Bowl for example. You have to have a balanced running game to win in the playoffs.

Wrong. Cousins is one of the best intermediate to deep throw passers in the league, and if you think it's going to be dink and dunk going forward, like your buddy Teddy, you're going to be really disappointed.

When this team gets back to play action, alternating with an improved run game, the big plays will not go down. If you can get Thielen/Diggs free off play action, or our TE's down the seam, look out.

The days of our RB scoring as many TD"s as our inept QB can throw are over. And thank f-ing goodness. You're the only one that opines for that moon ball garbage. You need an offense that can score points, and a defense to stop the other team from scoring points.

[Joe Bag 'O Donuts]

Turner quit when things went South. Zimmer was trying to pressure him and they butted heads. Turner left. Shurmur was a washed up coach before Keenum came in. Then he got a HC gig (he'll be gone in a few years), which isn't Zimmer's fault. He actually retained Stefanski, which was ballsy. Now we have Stefanski, Kubiak, Dennison, etc. Kubiak doesn't seem like he will stay long, but his son is with the team. Just like with Turner.

Zimmer does struggle as a HC, which explains the Kubiak move, but shows why Defillippo was a bad move. Zimmer didn't like the pissing match and didn't like that Flip thought how you think Sergeant Rubetube. He got fired and Stefanski knew what he had to do.

If you don't like close games that are built around ball control you are really gonna hate this team and Zimmer. That is what we have been doing since Childress came around. That is what defense teams do. We are a defense built team and have been for a long time. TB, Ravens, etc gave us this formula. Thank God we dropped the Cover-2! Zim's defense is a definite upgrade.

This all goes back to 1998 in my opinion. Denny Green could put up a million points, but his defenses were not that good. When TB gave the Vikings' their only loss of that 1998 season it was because of the Cover-2 and ball control. If your offense isn't on the field they cannot score. You shut down a high powered offense by keeping the ball out of their hands. That is what this team has been doing for years now. Cousins throwing for 4000+ yards is not a good thing when you are all about ball control, especially when your running game is non-existent. Flip got fired for not understanding that. You get the Rams game where it is a back and forth, but Cousins wasn't good enough to play that game and win. The defense is built to make the other team go three and out and then for our offense to not go three and out. The problem last season was that our offense went three and out too much. Our defense then had to defend too long and broke.

Lol. Blaming Cousins for the Rams game. That game came down to who could get a stop first and we couldn't get one.

Let's not forget they had Gurley and China doll Cook played half of the first quarter and was done.

Cousins had a crucial fumble at the end of that game. That's a fact.

At the same time, he not only had one of his best passing games that day, but he also led the team in rushing (running for more yards than all other Vikings running backs combined) while the defense gave up 556 yards and 38 points...

...but yeah. Let's blame Cousins for the loss.

Oops.