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StTrib:Rick Spielman, Vikings playing with fire given their offseason so far

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cunningham
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StTrib:Rick Spielman, Vikings playing with fire given their offseason so far

Post by cunningham »

Ruh-Roh... Spielman getting bad press? Say it ain't so!
Rick Spielman has a blind spot when it comes to his quarterback’s blindside.

The Vikings general manager has watched spotty offensive line play ruin two of the past three seasons.

To address this glaring need, Spielman has re-signed a linebacker who almost left for the Jets, brought back a defensive lineman who had left to play for the Seahawks, re-signed a kicker and a backup running back and lost a promising guard to New Orleans.

If Spielman had a wart on his toe, he would treat it by taking a cough drop.

The current Vikings roster includes one player who has started an NFL game at guard — Danny Isidora. He has started three — for an offensive line in desperate need of help.

Isidora might develop into a solid player. But the Vikings aren’t trying to slowly develop solid players. They are not playing for 2022. They are trying to win a Super Bowl with an expensive quarterback, a loaded defense and an impressive array of runners and receivers.

The current Vikings offensive line, if they had to play a game tomorrow, would be: Riley Reiff and Brian O’Neill at tackle, Isidora and Aviante Collins at guard and Pat Elflein at center. If they sign free agent Josh Kline, they will have a veteran guard to pair with Isidora but will remain under pressure to add quality in the draft.

The expectation entering the NFL free agency period was that the Vikings would lose linebacker Anthony Barr and use their increased salary cap space to sign a quality offensive lineman, or two.

Instead, Barr was welcomed back and the Vikings whiffed on all of the best free agent offensive linemen, meaning they will need wizardly coaching, dramatic improvement from Isidora and/or Collins and a draft that yields at least one offensive line starter.

There are ways this approach could work. Virtually every year Bill Belichick makes under-the-radar moves and succeeds. The nicest thing that can be said about Spielman’s approach thus far, though, is that he is tempting fate.

Last year, pressure visibly affected Kirk Cousins. After spending the first half of the season proving he could hit Stefon Diggs and Adam Thielen downfield, he spent the second half ducking rushers and looking for ways to get rid of the ball as quickly as possible.

He displayed this angst most visibly in the must-win season finale. Under pressure, he threw a pass quickly and short while Thielen ran long. Lip-readers saw Cousins telling Thielen, “I don’t have 10 seconds.”

The two argued, prompting Cousins to pantomime the route he needed Thielen to run.

Blame Thielen for running the wrong route? Sure, although Thielen is known for intelligent route-running.

Blame Cousins for throwing a fit? Absolutely, although he’s not the first highly paid quarterback to yell at a teammate, just, perhaps, the first to perform an entire skit on the sideline.

Blame the offensive line for allowing so much pressure that Cousins turned into a jittery nag? This hits closest to home for a franchise that has no choice but to rely on Cousins for the next two seasons.

I learned long ago not to overestimate my, or any analyst’s, ability to judge individual offensive line play. Having Mike Tice yell at you will disabuse you of the notion that you can tell who was at fault when a play went awry.

But it doesn’t require insider expertise to know that the line wasn’t good enough last year, that the line was the difference between going 8-7-1 and making the playoffs and perhaps making the playoffs as a threat to win a game or two.

Having ignored the offensive line in free agency, Slumberin’ Spielman will have to redeem himself in the draft.

Will he?

He hasn’t chosen an offensive lineman in the first round since 2012, when he took Matt Kalil, who was impressive as a rookie and a lost puppy thereafter.

Spielman’s past three first-round picks: cornerback Mike Hughes, receiver Laquon Treadwell and cornerback Trae Waynes. Hughes is a real talent who plays a position that was not a need for the Vikings; Treadwell is a bust; Waynes is a solid player who is close to being superfluous.

This April, Spielman needs to take an offensive lineman or two who are capable of starting.

Will he?

Or will his blind spot ruin another Vikings season?
Anyone else getting nervous yet about our offensive line?

So then some (including myself) have read that Dennison has nearly a rocket scientist degree, surely he can take a crappy line and do something with it!

Then the Star published this tidbit:
Less than a week into free agency, the Vikings’ philosophy for 2019 has taken shape. Namely: They’re going to go with (and pay) the guys with whom they’ve had success in the past.

That means, at least at this point, giving defensive-minded head coach Mike Zimmer as many familiar defensive resources as the salary-cap challenged franchise can afford. Re-signing linebacker Anthony Barr and restructuring Everson Griffen’s deal were the biggest moves in that regard.

It also means any attempted upgrades to the offense — specifically the offensive line — figure to be far from splashy. The Vikings find themselves with plenty of offensive line needs but limited cap space in an offseason when a lot of linemen are getting paid.

That combination will leave the Vikings hoping to improve a major 2018 weakness — Pro Football Focus graded the Vikings’ line 29th out of 32 teams — via the draft, lower-level signings and, perhaps most importantly, internal improvement brought about by new offensive coaches.

It’s not an awful strategy — there’s no cap on what you can pay coaches, so you might as well aim big — which is good because it’s the only one the Vikings really have at their disposal.

Even in-house free agent candidates for return at guard like Nick Easton and Tom Compton have already departed for the Saints and Jets, respectively.

While they will certainly give new offensive line coach Rick Dennison more than the one player on the roster who has played guard in the NFL (Danny Isidora) by the time the regular season starts, it is notable to consider how much is presumably being expected of the veteran coach.

The recent track record of both Dennison and the Vikings suggests 2019 could bring about improvement. The questions are: How much, and will it be enough to keep subpar offensive line play from playing a major role again in keeping the Vikings out of the playoffs for the third time in four years.

On Dennison’s ledger, here are two positives: The Bills in 2016 had the No. 11-rated offensive line per PFF. Dennison arrived in Buffalo for one season as offensive coordinator in 2017 and the unit improved four spots to No. 7 overall in PFF’s rankings.

He went to the Jets in 2018 as the offensive line coach/run game coordinator — the same title he now holds with the Vikings — and took PFF’s 30th-ranked offensive line from the previous year and improved it to the No. 25 ranking.

Neither of those examples were huge leaps, but progress is progress. Similarly, the Vikings in 2017 benefited from the hiring of Tony Sparano in improving from a No. 29 ranking in 2016 to No. 22 in 2017. His tragic death before the 2018 season had a major impact.

Vikings fans might say the difference between the line play in those years was even greater than a seven-spot swing would indicate.

That said, the Vikings also invested that year in two new tackles in 2017 (Riley Reiff and Mike Remmers) as well as using a third-round pick on center Pat Elflein. The Vikings would have to get pretty creative with their cap to fit in a contract similar to the one Reiff signed two years ago (five years, $58.75 million, including $26.3 million guaranteed).

Bottom line: The Vikings will need to spend wisely, draft well next month and hope Dennison can make a subpar unit perform adequately in 2019.
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Re: StTrib:Rick Spielman, Vikings playing with fire given their offseason so far

Post by Tuck ya in »

The only thing I can think of is the Vikings believe the new o-line coach's scheme will enhance their production. Because this is getting dicey. I've always been a Spielman guy, he's built a Superbowl caliber roster for the most part, nailed later round picks, hired Zimmer, etc. But the absent-mindedness regarding the importance of the offensive line has always been the trait that gave me pause about him. I wanted an olineman MANY times over the last few years drafted early, instead you get Treadwell, Hughes, etc....now it's costing you. Imagine if they just drafted Hernandez last year, we might of made the freaking playoffs on him alone! And you wouldn't be forced to go o-line at #18 this year, and could target other positions like tight end and DT. This might be the tipping point with me and my guy Spielman, his ignorance is turning me.
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Re: StTrib:Rick Spielman, Vikings playing with fire given their offseason so far

Post by weimy froob »

the column is pretty much the consensus opinion on the forum for months now. RS has to have a plan on how he's going to pull the rabbit out of the hat. i'm just going to watch and see how it unfolds.
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Re: StTrib:Rick Spielman, Vikings playing with fire given their offseason so far

Post by 64DegreeWedge »

I’m tellin ya. Get a OC who lives in 2019 and the line will improve.

Ridiculous to think every player he has brought in can’t play football at a professional lvl
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Re: StTrib:Rick Spielman, Vikings playing with fire given their offseason so far

Post by B-Town »

64DegreeWedge wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:00 am I’m tellin ya. Get a OC who lives in 2019 and the line will improve.

Ridiculous to think every player he has brought in can’t play football at a professional lvl
The proof is in the pudding. The Vikings OL players may not be as bad as they played last year, but they are bad. Make no mistake about that. The fact that the team seems to be writing it off based on the situation is irresponsible.
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Re: StTrib:Rick Spielman, Vikings playing with fire given their offseason so far

Post by Beef Supreme »

Easton is a “promising young guard” now?


If Rick has given him $6M/per, he would have been savaged. Justifiably so.

Rick has a mess on his hands, but overpaying marginal talent does not clean up the mess. It makes a bigger mess over the long term.
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Re: StTrib:Rick Spielman, Vikings playing with fire given their offseason so far

Post by cunningham »

B-Town wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:14 am
64DegreeWedge wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:00 am I’m tellin ya. Get a OC who lives in 2019 and the line will improve.

Ridiculous to think every player he has brought in can’t play football at a professional lvl
The proof is in the pudding. The Vikings OL players may not be as bad as they played last year, but they are bad. Make no mistake about that. The fact that the team seems to be writing it off based on the situation is irresponsible.
I'm shocked too at this point. I think Cousins is a choker and has issues with pressure in the pocket. So we just ignore the issue? Then people post here when each guy leaves about how he sucked in the first place. Then they sign for decent money somewhere else. I mean Compton sucked and we were told Remmers was the worst. Then they get signed quickly elsewhere. People were complaining about Easton and injuries - then he signs a big 4 year deal. Posters here just write him off as too much money.

We are being rubes at this point. Spielman has shown now in the many years he has been here that he sucks at building an offensive line and finding a quarterback. You cannot have a pocket quarterback without an offensive line. Our running game was the worst in the NFL last season.

I thought that Dennison could turn it around, but his stats are meh as well.

No one is even talking about Cook being off the field more than on the last two years while Murray leaves. He helped this team reach the NFC Championship game, but rubes say good riddance.

Too little - too late for Spielman.
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Re: StTrib:Rick Spielman, Vikings playing with fire given their offseason so far

Post by B-Town »

Beef Supreme wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:16 am Easton is a “promising young guard” now?


If Rick has given him $6M/per, he would have been savaged. Justifiably so.

Rick has a mess on his hands, but overpaying marginal talent does not clean up the mess. It makes a bigger mess over the long term.
This is true, but the team did have an opportunity to bring in reliable players and decided to make Barr the priority. I'd argue that making no moves is as damaging as making the wrong ones.
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Re: StTrib:Rick Spielman, Vikings playing with fire given their offseason so far

Post by Da Gas Man »

So Dennison makes players better. Great. That is what we need. No OL coach can make 30th level personnel perform like they are top 10 but there is an improvement that a coach can provide especially on a unit where synergy is part of the equation.

With a highly drafted guard AND even an okay RG, this OL can have 22th level personnel. O'Niel (sp?) will be a year stronger and better. He surprised last year. Elf was not a good as he was his rookie year. Let's presume that's the injury. Reiff had a down year but he was pretty okay the previous year. Plug in a premier rookie at LG (hopefully) and a RG like Kline or Collins at RG, and that could be a 22th level personnel. If Dennison takes that level of personnel and makes them play like the 17th best OL in football (pretty much average), that would be a HUGE improvement over previous years. Even below average would be a huge improvement.
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Re: StTrib:Rick Spielman, Vikings playing with fire given their offseason so far

Post by Small Hands »

B-Town wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:14 am
64DegreeWedge wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:00 am I’m tellin ya. Get a OC who lives in 2019 and the line will improve.

Ridiculous to think every player he has brought in can’t play football at a professional lvl
The proof is in the pudding. The Vikings OL players may not be as bad as they played last year, but they are bad. Make no mistake about that. The fact that the team seems to be writing it off based on the situation is irresponsible.
The biggest blunder with the line last season was not getting a replacement for Berger. The Easton injury was circumstantial. Now he's just doubling down on stupid. Kline is a wing and a prayer signing. It's a classic MN Twins type signing. "He was great two years ago!". That doesn't change the fact that the Titans felt better off eating $3 million in dead cap this year then keeping him on the roster for an additional $3 million. Clearly, they know something. They HAVE to hit pay dirt on a G in the draft, or we'll be watching the same dumpster fire.
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Re: StTrib:Rick Spielman, Vikings playing with fire given their offseason so far

Post by D_B_U »

The over-reaction in this town is getting old.

Maybe Rick is waiting for the draft to do a couple things:

Draft OL help

Trade current players for OL

Wait till June 1 cut's to pick up someone who fits the system.

Why over pay for mediocre/average players.

Easton got 6 million a year for god sake.
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Re: StTrib:Rick Spielman, Vikings playing with fire given their offseason so far

Post by Ash Ketchum »

Lol at the articles “clever” quip about being blind to Cousins’ blindside, and then going on to talk about guard only.
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Re: StTrib:Rick Spielman, Vikings playing with fire given their offseason so far

Post by Dude »

The need to fix their offensive line. That's 100% truth.

That being said, the free agent market was crazy for offensive linemen. Even average-at-best guys were going for a huge price (Easton). Spielman's a dope for putting them in this spot to begin with, but I can't argue with him not spending top dollar on someone from the group that was available. At this point, sign a guy or two with experience at a reasonable price and try to hit on high level talent in the draft.
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Re: StTrib:Rick Spielman, Vikings playing with fire given their offseason so far

Post by Oriole81 »

B-Town wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:20 am
Beef Supreme wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:16 am Easton is a “promising young guard” now?


If Rick has given him $6M/per, he would have been savaged. Justifiably so.

Rick has a mess on his hands, but overpaying marginal talent does not clean up the mess. It makes a bigger mess over the long term.
This is true, but the team did have an opportunity to bring in reliable players and decided to make Barr the priority. I'd argue that making no moves is as damaging as making the wrong ones.
If they let Barr go, then they’d still have to go out and use a high draft pick on his replacement since we have nobody in house to take over.

Thus, there’s no difference in re-signing Barr and using our early pick(s) on O-line as there is with letting Barr walk to use that same money on a FA o-lineman and using one of our early picks to draft Barr’s replacement.

We have the same resources no matter what so as long as we get what is eventually needed, then either path is equally fine. At least w/ Barr you’re getting a known Pro Bowler.
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Re: StTrib:Rick Spielman, Vikings playing with fire given their offseason so far

Post by cunningham »

Ash Ketchum wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:33 am Lol at the articles “clever” quip about being blind to Cousins’ blindside, and then going on to talk about guard only.
Maybe Cousins has many different blindsides?

My fear is that looking at how much money linemen are going for there might be a lot of teams looking to take them high. Everyone knows we are going O-linemen and a few might trade to be right in front of us in both first rounds. Then we get the crap player that we are forced to take because of need... The Ponder/Troy Williamson of guards.
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Re: StTrib:Rick Spielman, Vikings playing with fire given their offseason so far

Post by Dude »

Oriole81 wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:37 am
B-Town wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:20 am
Beef Supreme wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:16 am Easton is a “promising young guard” now?


If Rick has given him $6M/per, he would have been savaged. Justifiably so.

Rick has a mess on his hands, but overpaying marginal talent does not clean up the mess. It makes a bigger mess over the long term.
This is true, but the team did have an opportunity to bring in reliable players and decided to make Barr the priority. I'd argue that making no moves is as damaging as making the wrong ones.
If they let Barr go, then they’d still have to go out and use a high draft pick on his replacement since we have nobody in house to take over.

Thus, there’s no difference in re-signing Barr and using our early pick(s) on O-line as there is with letting Barr walk to use that same money on a FA o-lineman and using one of our early picks to draft Barr’s replacement.

We have the same resources no matter what so as long as we get what is eventually needed, then either path is equally fine. At least w/ Barr you’re getting a known Pro Bowler.
Why is that? I'm not saying they wouldn't have needed to backfill, but Barr missed 3 games this year and the defense didn't suddenly fall apart. They might be a top 10 defense with him but they're still a top 15 defense without him.
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Re: StTrib:Rick Spielman, Vikings playing with fire given their offseason so far

Post by B-Town »

D_B_U wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:30 am The over-reaction in this town is getting old.

Maybe Rick is waiting for the draft to do a couple things:

Draft OL help

Trade current players for OL

Wait till June 1 cut's to pick up someone who fits the system.

Why over pay for mediocre/average players.

Easton got 6 million a year for god sake.
I understand the notion that overpaying players is bad, but the Vikings put themselves in a position where they have to act out of desperation. It's not overreacting to ask them to do something...
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Re: StTrib:Rick Spielman, Vikings playing with fire given their offseason so far

Post by Oriole81 »

Dude wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:42 am
Oriole81 wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:37 am
B-Town wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:20 am

This is true, but the team did have an opportunity to bring in reliable players and decided to make Barr the priority. I'd argue that making no moves is as damaging as making the wrong ones.
If they let Barr go, then they’d still have to go out and use a high draft pick on his replacement since we have nobody in house to take over.

Thus, there’s no difference in re-signing Barr and using our early pick(s) on O-line as there is with letting Barr walk to use that same money on a FA o-lineman and using one of our early picks to draft Barr’s replacement.

We have the same resources no matter what so as long as we get what is eventually needed, then either path is equally fine. At least w/ Barr you’re getting a known Pro Bowler.
Why is that? I'm not saying they wouldn't have needed to backfill, but Barr missed 3 games this year and the defense didn't suddenly fall apart. They might be a top 10 defense with him but they're still a top 15 defense without him.
Because you have to be elite at something In order to win a SB, and whether we like it or not, we’re a stud defense driven team. If that falls down to even Top 15 as you say, then we can’t win a title, considering the o-line addition we would bring in wouldn’t do much to move the needle into making us an elite level offense.
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Re: StTrib:Rick Spielman, Vikings playing with fire given their offseason so far

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Way 2 go Free Press!
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Re: StTrib:Rick Spielman, Vikings playing with fire given their offseason so far

Post by B-Town »

Oriole81 wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:49 am
Dude wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:42 am
Oriole81 wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:37 am

If they let Barr go, then they’d still have to go out and use a high draft pick on his replacement since we have nobody in house to take over.

Thus, there’s no difference in re-signing Barr and using our early pick(s) on O-line as there is with letting Barr walk to use that same money on a FA o-lineman and using one of our early picks to draft Barr’s replacement.

We have the same resources no matter what so as long as we get what is eventually needed, then either path is equally fine. At least w/ Barr you’re getting a known Pro Bowler.
Why is that? I'm not saying they wouldn't have needed to backfill, but Barr missed 3 games this year and the defense didn't suddenly fall apart. They might be a top 10 defense with him but they're still a top 15 defense without him.
Because you have to be elite at something In order to win a SB, and whether we like it or not, we’re a stud defense driven team. If that falls down to even Top 15 as you say, then we can’t win a title, considering the o-line addition we would bring in wouldn’t do much to move the needle into making us an elite level offense.
This is a horrible take. Zimmer is supposed to be a great defensive coach and he has more defensive talent than any other team in the league. If they were to drop to #15 without Barr, then Zimmer doesn't deserve a job. Come on.
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Re: StTrib:Rick Spielman, Vikings playing with fire given their offseason so far

Post by Simpson Get Lifted »

Addressing the offense, at the supposed expense of the defense does not mean the defense is suddenly not good enough anymore. In fact, if you address the issues that created the most problems with the offense, you're also helping the defense. If you can run the ball more and sustain drives, as Zim would like, that makes the defense better.
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Re: StTrib:Rick Spielman, Vikings playing with fire given their offseason so far

Post by Oriole81 »

B-Town wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:54 am
Oriole81 wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:49 am
Dude wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:42 am

Why is that? I'm not saying they wouldn't have needed to backfill, but Barr missed 3 games this year and the defense didn't suddenly fall apart. They might be a top 10 defense with him but they're still a top 15 defense without him.
Because you have to be elite at something In order to win a SB, and whether we like it or not, we’re a stud defense driven team. If that falls down to even Top 15 as you say, then we can’t win a title, considering the o-line addition we would bring in wouldn’t do much to move the needle into making us an elite level offense.
This is a horrible take. Zimmer is supposed to be a great defensive coach and he has more defensive talent than any other team in the league. If they were to drop to #15 without Barr, then Zimmer doesn't deserve a job. Come on.
It takes multiple years to develop a mid to late rd prospect to becoming a pro bowl player, even for a guru like Zim, so if we are to believe that we have a short window, then it is absolutely is important to keep that elite level defense.

Now I will agree in Long term theory with you that Zim should be able to get by with less, and I even advocated for us last year to target Lorenzo Carter on Day 2 as insurance for Barr leaving, but they didn’t. At this point we can only work with what we have, and we don’t have an in house LB replacement, and you can’t expect to coach up a mid to late rd prospect in year one to being close to Anthony Barr.

You can though potentially coach and develop a mid round OL prospect to be Matt Paradis though in year one, which is where Barr money may have gone.
Last edited by Oriole81 on Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: StTrib:Rick Spielman, Vikings playing with fire given their offseason so far

Post by Beef Supreme »

B-Town wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:20 am
Beef Supreme wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:16 am Easton is a “promising young guard” now?


If Rick has given him $6M/per, he would have been savaged. Justifiably so.

Rick has a mess on his hands, but overpaying marginal talent does not clean up the mess. It makes a bigger mess over the long term.
This is true, but the team did have an opportunity to bring in reliable players and decided to make Barr the priority. I'd argue that making no moves is as damaging as making the wrong ones.
I agree with your philosophy. But I disagree that keeping the major pieces of a top defense together is a "wrong move."

The "wrong move" that happened was last year guaranteeing Kirk Cousins $84M. But that's over now and is sunk cost. So we need to move on and figure out how to make the best team possible with Cousins on that albatross contract. If you look at his Washington years, he never won more than 9 games despite his gaudy stats and the reason given for that was that Washington's defense let him down. There is evidence for that as during his 4 years as a starter, they averaged out as the 11th best offense in the league and the 23rd best defense. So that explains their 28-35-1 record during those years. Fine.

So we know that Cousins needs a good defense to win. So keep the good defense. Last year, the excuse for going 8-7-1 was a bad OL. The OL was certainly bad. Couldn't run and couldn't protect Cousins. The fact that Cousins has bad pocket presence and low mobility exacerbates the problem, but that's not the point. We have to accept that he's our guy for 2019 and 2020 and need to do the best we can to win with him as he is. He's not going to get any better in those areas. It's why I don't think he's worth $84M, but again, that's a different issue.

So we have to fix the OL. Stipulated. Even if Cousins isn't the guy and we need to move on, the next guy should benefit from a competent OL or we're just setting that guy up for failure too. And that doesn't even consider how bad blocking affects the running game. So there is no argument from me. We have to fix the OL.

But if we do so by gutting the defense, aren't we just re-creating the scenario that Cousins could not win with in Washington?

We have 8 picks in the draft to use or trade to address the OL. We have June cuts to nab a vet stop-gap. We have new coaches that will have a new system and new ways to hopefully reach or "coach up" some of the guys we have now. Some are panicking in March. Work must be done, but there are still many opportunities to do it.
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Re: StTrib:Rick Spielman, Vikings playing with fire given their offseason so far

Post by Beef Supreme »

B-Town wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:45 am
D_B_U wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:30 am The over-reaction in this town is getting old.

Maybe Rick is waiting for the draft to do a couple things:

Draft OL help

Trade current players for OL

Wait till June 1 cut's to pick up someone who fits the system.

Why over pay for mediocre/average players.

Easton got 6 million a year for god sake.
I understand the notion that overpaying players is bad, but the Vikings put themselves in a position where they have to act out of desperation. It's not overreacting to ask them to do something...
Not yet. We still have the draft. If we come out of the draft without any good answers at OL, then it will be time to make desperation moves. But not until then.

IMHO, signing Easton to $6M/per is an act of desperation. He's not that good and hurt a lot. $6M? Are you kidding?
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Small Hands
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Re: StTrib:Rick Spielman, Vikings playing with fire given their offseason so far

Post by Small Hands »

Beef Supreme wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:06 am
B-Town wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:45 am
D_B_U wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:30 am The over-reaction in this town is getting old.

Maybe Rick is waiting for the draft to do a couple things:

Draft OL help

Trade current players for OL

Wait till June 1 cut's to pick up someone who fits the system.

Why over pay for mediocre/average players.

Easton got 6 million a year for god sake.
I understand the notion that overpaying players is bad, but the Vikings put themselves in a position where they have to act out of desperation. It's not overreacting to ask them to do something...
Not yet. We still have the draft. If we come out of the draft without any good answers at OL, then it will be time to make desperation moves. But not until then.

IMHO, signing Easton to $6M/per is an act of desperation. He's not that good and hurt a lot. $6M? Are you kidding?
I agree with the Easton take. That's ludicrous. There were other options that would have changed things. Cut ties with Griffin and sign Saffold. Then you can draft BPA in the 1st and grab Lindstrom or Risner in the second. Or even McGovern in the 3rd. Ford is slipping according to the talking heads too. You might even be able to grab him in the second.

It's all woulda coulda shit, but I don't think relying on the draft to fix the OLine is a good plan. Especially, when Rick put them in this predicament.
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Re: StTrib:Rick Spielman, Vikings playing with fire given their offseason so far

Post by Beef Supreme »

Small Hands wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:15 am
Beef Supreme wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:06 am
B-Town wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:45 am

I understand the notion that overpaying players is bad, but the Vikings put themselves in a position where they have to act out of desperation. It's not overreacting to ask them to do something...
Not yet. We still have the draft. If we come out of the draft without any good answers at OL, then it will be time to make desperation moves. But not until then.

IMHO, signing Easton to $6M/per is an act of desperation. He's not that good and hurt a lot. $6M? Are you kidding?
I agree with the Easton take. That's ludicrous. There were other options that would have changed things. Cut ties with Griffin and sign Saffold. Then you can draft BPA in the 1st and grab Lindstrom or Risner in the second. Or even McGovern in the 3rd. Ford is slipping according to the talking heads too. You might even be able to grab him in the second.

It's all woulda coulda shit, but I don't think relying on the draft to fix the OLine is a good plan. Especially, when Rick put them in this predicament.
I know. But then you've got a huge hole at DE. Unless Weatherly or one of the other depth guys is ready to take a big jump. But I'm not hearing that like I was with Griffen back when we let Jared Allen go.


I think the draft IS the way to go. There's no guarantee that a guy like Saffold was even interested in coming here. And he's the class of this year's FA, but he's not really that good. He's just kinda good. Certainly a massive upgrade from what we have, but at his cost, he's probably not going to age well. As he declines, that contract will be bad. It would be a 2-3 year fix, probably. We can have a 8-10 year fix in the draft, for a lot cheaper through the rookie contract, anyway.


I think this way is the smartest. I get that it frustrates people because there are still glaring holes and the draft can be unpredictable. So it's a risk. I accept that. But the reward for nailing it is a near-flawless team.

I mean, what if it works? What if we get a difference maker either at TE (Hockenson) or DT (Oliver) in the first and then get Lindstrom or Risner in the second and then McGovern in the 3rd? That's way better than dumping Griffen and getting Saffold.

Speilman has painted himself into a corner where he needs to pitch a near perfect game this April, but that's what happens when you give a flawed QB $84M guaranteed. You have to be perfect elsewhere. I'm sure he's planned for this. I'm sure he knows it's a problem. Hiring all these offensive coaches is a sign of that. We just have to wait a month or so to see what that plan is and if he can execute it effectively. If he can't, he probably needs to go. If he can, he's executive of the year.
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Re: StTrib:Rick Spielman, Vikings playing with fire given their offseason so far

Post by Dude »

Oriole81 wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:49 am
Dude wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:42 am
Oriole81 wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:37 am

If they let Barr go, then they’d still have to go out and use a high draft pick on his replacement since we have nobody in house to take over.

Thus, there’s no difference in re-signing Barr and using our early pick(s) on O-line as there is with letting Barr walk to use that same money on a FA o-lineman and using one of our early picks to draft Barr’s replacement.

We have the same resources no matter what so as long as we get what is eventually needed, then either path is equally fine. At least w/ Barr you’re getting a known Pro Bowler.
Why is that? I'm not saying they wouldn't have needed to backfill, but Barr missed 3 games this year and the defense didn't suddenly fall apart. They might be a top 10 defense with him but they're still a top 15 defense without him.
Because you have to be elite at something In order to win a SB, and whether we like it or not, we’re a stud defense driven team. If that falls down to even Top 15 as you say, then we can’t win a title, considering the o-line addition we would bring in wouldn’t do much to move the needle into making us an elite level offense.
Sure. I guess where I disagree is that Barr isn't the difference between the Vikings being elite or not.
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Re: StTrib:Rick Spielman, Vikings playing with fire given their offseason so far

Post by Oriole81 »

Dude wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:36 am
Oriole81 wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:49 am
Dude wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:42 am

Why is that? I'm not saying they wouldn't have needed to backfill, but Barr missed 3 games this year and the defense didn't suddenly fall apart. They might be a top 10 defense with him but they're still a top 15 defense without him.
Because you have to be elite at something In order to win a SB, and whether we like it or not, we’re a stud defense driven team. If that falls down to even Top 15 as you say, then we can’t win a title, considering the o-line addition we would bring in wouldn’t do much to move the needle into making us an elite level offense.
Sure. I guess where I disagree is that Barr isn't the difference between the Vikings being elite or not.
Fair enough, but I do think the gap from Barr down to Eric Wilson is bigger than the gap from Sheldon down to Johnson/Holmes, so if I had to spend money on one of the two also taking into effect the drop off from next man up, I think Barr was the right move.

But as I said above too, I thought they should have drafted Lorenzo Carter last year so they could afford to let Barr go this offseason, but they didn't.
2020 All Time NBA Draft

A Iverson, K Irving
J Havlicek, M Ginobili, M Richmond
D Wilkins, B Bowen
T Duncan, B McAdoo
H Olajuwon, W Unseld, A Sabonis
Simpson Get Lifted
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Re: StTrib:Rick Spielman, Vikings playing with fire given their offseason so far

Post by Simpson Get Lifted »

Dude wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:36 am
Oriole81 wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:49 am
Dude wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:42 am

Why is that? I'm not saying they wouldn't have needed to backfill, but Barr missed 3 games this year and the defense didn't suddenly fall apart. They might be a top 10 defense with him but they're still a top 15 defense without him.
Because you have to be elite at something In order to win a SB, and whether we like it or not, we’re a stud defense driven team. If that falls down to even Top 15 as you say, then we can’t win a title, considering the o-line addition we would bring in wouldn’t do much to move the needle into making us an elite level offense.
Sure. I guess where I disagree is that Barr isn't the difference between the Vikings being elite or not.
I'd also disagree that sacrificing a guy or two on defense will cause this massive downfall from a top rated defense to average. Addressing the top 3 offensive issues, OL, run game, and converting 3rd downs DOES move the needle enough.
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Re: StTrib:Rick Spielman, Vikings playing with fire given their offseason so far

Post by Oriole81 »

Simpson Get Lifted wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:46 am
Dude wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:36 am
Oriole81 wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:49 am

Because you have to be elite at something In order to win a SB, and whether we like it or not, we’re a stud defense driven team. If that falls down to even Top 15 as you say, then we can’t win a title, considering the o-line addition we would bring in wouldn’t do much to move the needle into making us an elite level offense.
Sure. I guess where I disagree is that Barr isn't the difference between the Vikings being elite or not.
I'd also disagree that sacrificing a guy or two on defense will cause this massive downfall from a top rated defense to average. Addressing the top 3 offensive issues, OL, run game, and converting 3rd downs DOES move the needle enough.
you can do all that while still retaining Barr though
2020 All Time NBA Draft

A Iverson, K Irving
J Havlicek, M Ginobili, M Richmond
D Wilkins, B Bowen
T Duncan, B McAdoo
H Olajuwon, W Unseld, A Sabonis
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