Jon Gruden

[salamander]

I'm actually liking what he's doing. He's bottoming out the team for lots of high draft picks.

Three 1st rounders in 2019 and another two in 2020.
He was hired to win in Las Vegas. That's two years away.

As long as he can get Carr to buy in he'll be fine.
(I've never thought Carr was a great QB though.)

I saw an article on ESPN where they thought, the Raiders were going to try and make all their home games in other countries next year. It was an interesting idea and the NFL would love to have some games in countries not used to seeing them.

Maybe we'll be playing the Raiders next year in Brazil or Mexico City?
Wouldn't that be fun? A Vikings game in Mexico City?

[RubeTube]

He needs to trade Carr for some more picks. He's horrible.

[Phrooster]

As we all know those picks don't always work out

[Phrooster]

As we all know those picks don't always work out

[hategreenticemase]

He needs to trade Carr for some more picks. He's horrible.

"Demry Croft is a Superstar"

[Beef Supreme]

A copyright infringement lawsuit has been filed by the 2013-2016 Philadelphia 76ers.

[twgerber]

Gruden has destroyed that team. I would be pissed as a Raider fan if he gutted that team like that. Consider only half or so of all 1st round picks work out. He is throwing away good talent.

[Car Ramrod]

We will have to see how things shake out the next 2-3 years with all these draft picks.

Trading Amari Cooper for a 1st round pick (likely top 15), has to be one of the more lopsided trades in recent years. They got lucky with that one.

[RubeTube]

We will have to see how things shake out the next 2-3 years with all these draft picks.

Trading Amari Cooper for a 1st round pick (likely top 15), has to be one of the more lopsided trades in recent years. They got lucky with that one.

Great move with that trade. They were not going to resign him either. Terrible move by Dallas. They just could of waited but they thought they had a chance this year and crapped their undies on Monday night.

[salamander]

As we all know those picks don't always work out

I get that but bottoming out is the best way to jump up as well.

[Philo Beddoe]

I'd rather have kahlil mack then a draft pick.

[mlhouse]

Gruden has destroyed that team. I would be pissed as a Raider fan if he gutted that team like that. Consider only half or so of all 1st round picks work out. He is throwing away good talent.

Raider fans are pissed off because the team is moving.

What Gruden is doing is called TANKING in the NBA. Pure and simple. If they wanted to win now Amari Cooper and Khahil Mack would be on the team.

What isn't obvious about that?

[Hornets]

Gruden knows EXACTLY what he is doing and anyone who doesn't think he'll be successful is delusional. I'll predict a SB appearance within 5 years, maybe 4.

[Ash Ketchum]

Tanking in the NBA is necessary for some teams because you can’t even hope to win a title unless you have multiple superstars on your team. And for most teams that aren’t warm weather, trendy cities, you can’t get superstars to come in free agency, you need to get lucky in the draft.

The NFL is much different, and tanking isn’t really worth it unless it results in a true franchise QB. That being said, the sheer quantity of early picks they’ve amassed will be nice for their rebuild.

Would have kept Mack, as he’s still young and plays a premium position, but am fine with trading Cooper. Not really even that mad about the Mack trade, but it appears the Bears will make that into a lower pick.

No one at this point can say Gruden’s methods are smart or dumb yet. It will all depend on how those added picks turn out.

If he can get studs with those picks, they will have done well, especially given how much money Mack was to get.

[RubeTube]

Gruden knows EXACTLY what he is doing and anyone who doesn't think he'll be successful is delusional. I'll predict a SB appearance within 5 years, maybe 4.

Lol

[mlhouse]

Tanking in the NBA is necessary for some teams because you can’t even hope to win a title unless you have multiple superstars on your team. And for most teams that aren’t warm weather, trendy cities, you can’t get superstars to come in free agency, you need to get lucky in the draft.

The NFL is much different, and tanking isn’t really worth it unless it results in a true franchise QB. That being said, the sheer quantity of early picks they’ve amassed will be nice for their rebuild.

Would have kept Mack, as he’s still young and plays a premium position, but am fine with trading Cooper. Not really even that mad about the Mack trade, but it appears the Bears will make that into a lower pick.

No one at this point can say Gruden’s methods are smart or dumb yet. It will all depend on how those added picks turn out.

If he can get studs with those picks, they will have done well, especially given how much money Mack was to get.

Again, this is tanking. If they werent they would have kept Mack. But they don't want to pay him to play in Oakland. Get it? If the team was already in Las Vegas they would probably not be following this path and would have paid Mack. But they aren't going to give a defensive end $90 million, repeat, $90 million in guaranteed money when he will turn 29 the year they move to Vegas.

[Ash Ketchum]

Tanking in the NBA is necessary for some teams because you can’t even hope to win a title unless you have multiple superstars on your team. And for most teams that aren’t warm weather, trendy cities, you can’t get superstars to come in free agency, you need to get lucky in the draft.

The NFL is much different, and tanking isn’t really worth it unless it results in a true franchise QB. That being said, the sheer quantity of early picks they’ve amassed will be nice for their rebuild.

Would have kept Mack, as he’s still young and plays a premium position, but am fine with trading Cooper. Not really even that mad about the Mack trade, but it appears the Bears will make that into a lower pick.

No one at this point can say Gruden’s methods are smart or dumb yet. It will all depend on how those added picks turn out.

If he can get studs with those picks, they will have done well, especially given how much money Mack was to get.

Again, this is tanking. If they werent they would have kept Mack. But they don't want to pay him to play in Oakland. Get it? If the team was already in Las Vegas they would probably not be following this path and would have paid Mack. But they aren't going to give a defensive end $90 million, repeat, $90 million in guaranteed money when he will turn 29 the year they move to Vegas.

Right, I get it. I’m just saying you don’t have to totally bottom out in the NFL in order to get better.

I would have kept Mack because he’s that good, and you can survive Mack’s deal if you’re going to have a bunch of high draft picks playing alongside him. You don’t have to match everyone’s prime years together like in MLB to be good if you strike on those first and second rounders.

But I do understand not keeping him as well. It’s a lot of money.

[mlhouse]

Tanking in the NBA is necessary for some teams because you can’t even hope to win a title unless you have multiple superstars on your team. And for most teams that aren’t warm weather, trendy cities, you can’t get superstars to come in free agency, you need to get lucky in the draft.

The NFL is much different, and tanking isn’t really worth it unless it results in a true franchise QB. That being said, the sheer quantity of early picks they’ve amassed will be nice for their rebuild.

Would have kept Mack, as he’s still young and plays a premium position, but am fine with trading Cooper. Not really even that mad about the Mack trade, but it appears the Bears will make that into a lower pick.

No one at this point can say Gruden’s methods are smart or dumb yet. It will all depend on how those added picks turn out.

If he can get studs with those picks, they will have done well, especially given how much money Mack was to get.

Again, this is tanking. If they werent they would have kept Mack. But they don't want to pay him to play in Oakland. Get it? If the team was already in Las Vegas they would probably not be following this path and would have paid Mack. But they aren't going to give a defensive end $90 million, repeat, $90 million in guaranteed money when he will turn 29 the year they move to Vegas.

Right, I get it. I’m just saying you don’t have to totally bottom out in the NFL in order to get better.

I would have kept Mack because he’s that good, and you can survive Mack’s deal if you’re going to have a bunch of high draft picks playing alongside him. You don’t have to match everyone’s prime years together like in MLB to be good if you strike on those first and second rounders.

But I do understand not keeping him as well. It’s a lot of money.

But if you are a rebuidling team with these young guys slated to have impact after 2020, why even take the risk? They don't care one iota about their existing fan base when it comes down to it and in the end it is trivial money from a NFL revenue standpoint. If you sign Mack now to all of that guaranteed money and he is injured playong on a team in Oakland that isn't going anywhere, it has a huge impact on your future.

My guess is that their plan is to tank, get a top draft pick to take a GRUDEN franchise QB in the 2019 draft with the top pick, let him sit behind Carr for the 2019 season, and then showcase him in 2020 debut in Vegas. THey can cut Derek Carr in 2020 with just a $5 million cap hit and at the same time they have lots of picks in the draft to develop the depth to protect that new QB and give him some weapons, as well as the financial flexibility to bring in veteran free agents they need.

[Hornets]

Gruden knows EXACTLY what he is doing and anyone who doesn't think he'll be successful is delusional. I'll predict a SB appearance within 5 years, maybe 4.

Lol

Gonna book mark this one!

[mlhouse]

Gruden knows EXACTLY what he is doing and anyone who doesn't think he'll be successful is delusional. I'll predict a SB appearance within 5 years, maybe 4.

Lol

Gonna book mark this one!

I think Gruden still knows what he is doing. Not sure on the SB thing.

One example? Patrick Mahomes. I was a bit iffy on Mahomes as a prospect in his draft year. But then I watched Gruden's breakdown of Mahomes. He was right on about him.

[hategreenticemase]

Lol

Gonna book mark this one!

I think Gruden still knows what he is doing. Not sure on the SB thing.

One example? Patrick Mahomes. I was a bit iffy on Mahomes as a prospect in his draft year. But then I watched Gruden's breakdown of Mahomes. He was right on about him.

I have always liked Gruden. Not sure where I land on him now - has game passed him by or is crazy like a fox? Honestly don't know. Somehow he got a top #1 pick for Amari Cooper, while guys close to as good as Cooper are netting 3rd or 5th Rd picks

I did want to comment on his eval of quarterbacks. I'll take your word for it that he was spot-on regarding mahomes. But wasnt it he who also was high on Peterman as well???? How was his track record on his rating rookie quarterbacks?

[Ash Ketchum]

Gruden in his media capacity, which includes the QB camp thing, is favorable about everyone.

[twgerber]

Gruden has destroyed that team. I would be pissed as a Raider fan if he gutted that team like that. Consider only half or so of all 1st round picks work out. He is throwing away good talent.

Raider fans are pissed off because the team is moving.

What Gruden is doing is called TANKING in the NBA. Pure and simple. If they wanted to win now Amari Cooper and Khahil Mack would be on the team.

What isn't obvious about that?

Tanking doesn't work the same in the NFL - a team has too many players. When you have a true superstar like Mack you don't get rid of him for what they got. Gruden wants to completely rebuild - I get that but I think he is dumb for getting rid of Mack. He is cutting off his nose to spite his face.

[Small Hands]

Gruden has destroyed that team. I would be pissed as a Raider fan if he gutted that team like that. Consider only half or so of all 1st round picks work out. He is throwing away good talent.

Destroyed the team is a bit much. They finished 6-10 last season. Not exactly the gold standard there. Mack is unquestionably a stud and possibly the 2nd best defender in the league. I wouldn't have traded him for two 1sts. He was a part of the solution, not the problem. The Amari Cooper trade was a steal for the Raiders IMO. I take that deal 10 times out of 10. That could be a top 10 pick with the way Dallas is playing. Cooper clearly wasn't working out in Oakland, and I would be pretty surprised if he turns it around with Dak.

[mlhouse]

Gruden has destroyed that team. I would be pissed as a Raider fan if he gutted that team like that. Consider only half or so of all 1st round picks work out. He is throwing away good talent.

Destroyed the team is a bit much. They finished 6-10 last season. Not exactly the gold standard there. Mack is unquestionably a stud and possibly the 2nd best defender in the league. I wouldn't have traded him for two 1sts. He was a part of the solution, not the problem. The Amari Cooper trade was a steal for the Raiders IMO. I take that deal 10 times out of 10. That could be a top 10 pick with the way Dallas is playing. Cooper clearly wasn't working out in Oakland, and I would be pretty surprised if he turns it around with Dak.

The reply is to both of you. Sure YOU would not have traded him for two firsts and the other stuff involved in the trade. But then, YOU would not have to guarantee a defensive end $90 million either...$60 million of that upfront at signing.

Let's look at it from a different angle, shall we. Lets say the Raiders keep Mack and Cooper, and arent tanking. They finish 6-10 and they get the 10th pick in the 2019 draft like they had in the 2018 draft versus tanking and getting the #1 overall pick. They obviously want the top pick in the draft to select a QB that they feel will be the franchise guy in 2020 when they move to Vegas.

Now, take the Mack trade of multiple firsts (and even for argument the value they got for Cooper) and add that to the value they would have to SURRENDER TO MOVE FROM #10 to #1 to get the QB they want. In 2016, the Eagles moved from #8 to #2 and that cost them a 2016 3rd and 4th, a 2017 first, and a 2018 second.

So, while you certainly lose a lot of value in the tanking/financial moves, the logic behind it is pretty clear. They are going to stockpile draft picks and hoard their financial resources to build a team around the franchise QB they hope Gruden can develop as the face of the Vegas franchise.

[twgerber]

No I wouldnt have traded one of the top D players in the league for 2 1st's. There are many ways of rebuilding a team and you don't have to jettison your best talent. You build around those key players. Not get rid of them. The way Gruden is gutting that team IMO is horrible. Cooper trade I don't think is bad at all though.

[mlhouse]

No I wouldnt have traded one of the top D players in the league for 2 1st's. There are many ways of rebuilding a team and you don't have to jettison your best talent. You build around those key players. Not get rid of them. The way Gruden is gutting that team IMO is horrible. Cooper trade I don't think is bad at all though.

So, lets say you are the Denver Broncos in 2016. Sure, you just won teh Super Bowl, but Peyton Manning is going to retire. Von Miller needs to be resigned. He is the best defender in pro football. So, you sign the 27 year old to a 6 year, $114 million contract with $70 million of that guaranteed and $42 of that guaranteed at signing.

With Trevor Siemian as your QB you go 9-7 in 2016 with Miller getting 13.5 sacks. In 2017 you have a record of 5-11 with Siemian at QB with MIller getting 10 sacks. And this season after signing Case Keenum to a 2 year, $36 million contract and Miller having a great year so far with 9 sacks in 9 games, your record is 3-6.

It would have been almost impossible to do in the circumstances the Broncos were in 2016. You probably can't break up a team coming off a Super Bowl win without alienating the entire fan base. But then, the Broncos haven't reached hte playoffs since. The head coach of the Super Bowl winning team has been fired. THe team is struggling to win and in dumping DeMaryius Thomas they basically have done a bit of "tanking" themselves.

Now, for arguments sake and using hindsight, lets say that this is the 2018 Raiders are the 2016 Broncos. They aren't coming off a Super Bowl victory. They don't have to worry about alienating their entire fan base because that fan base will be adios in two years. The NFL has remarkably changes since even 2016 so unlike the Broncos they could conceivably answer their longterm QB problems in the upcoming draft. ANd the guy they need to sign is Von Miller who in almost every way is identical to having to sign Mack (age, produciton, etc).

Would you do it? My guess is if you gave the Broncos the chance to change history, go 2-14 in 2016, trade Miller and Thomas for multiple picks, draft Mitchell Trubisky, they would take that deal.

[Oriole81]

For all this talk about them needing to bottom out to secure a franchise QB, they could have just taken Josh Rosen this year already for free.
Or it would have been very easy to trade up for Josh Allen if they liked him better.

[twgerber]

No I wouldnt have traded one of the top D players in the league for 2 1st's. There are many ways of rebuilding a team and you don't have to jettison your best talent. You build around those key players. Not get rid of them. The way Gruden is gutting that team IMO is horrible. Cooper trade I don't think is bad at all though.

So, lets say you are the Denver Broncos in 2016. Sure, you just won teh Super Bowl, but Peyton Manning is going to retire. Von Miller needs to be resigned. He is the best defender in pro football. So, you sign the 27 year old to a 6 year, $114 million contract with $70 million of that guaranteed and $42 of that guaranteed at signing.

With Trevor Siemian as your QB you go 9-7 in 2016 with Miller getting 13.5 sacks. In 2017 you have a record of 5-11 with Siemian at QB with MIller getting 10 sacks. And this season after signing Case Keenum to a 2 year, $36 million contract and Miller having a great year so far with 9 sacks in 9 games, your record is 3-6.

It would have been almost impossible to do in the circumstances the Broncos were in 2016. You probably can't break up a team coming off a Super Bowl win without alienating the entire fan base. But then, the Broncos haven't reached hte playoffs since. The head coach of the Super Bowl winning team has been fired. THe team is struggling to win and in dumping DeMaryius Thomas they basically have done a bit of "tanking" themselves.

Now, for arguments sake and using hindsight, lets say that this is the 2018 Raiders are the 2016 Broncos. They aren't coming off a Super Bowl victory. They don't have to worry about alienating their entire fan base because that fan base will be adios in two years. The NFL has remarkably changes since even 2016 so unlike the Broncos they could conceivably answer their longterm QB problems in the upcoming draft. ANd the guy they need to sign is Von Miller who in almost every way is identical to having to sign Mack (age, produciton, etc).

Would you do it? My guess is if you gave the Broncos the chance to change history, go 2-14 in 2016, trade Miller and Thomas for multiple picks, draft Mitchell Trubisky, they would take that deal.

All of which proves diddly squat. You are all conjecture. All we know is that Gruden has destroyed this team this year. I doubt losing Mack will be worth the draft picks. He now needs to have everyone of these extra picks work out. If they bat the average of 50% work out then it's a disaster.

[mlhouse]

No I wouldnt have traded one of the top D players in the league for 2 1st's. There are many ways of rebuilding a team and you don't have to jettison your best talent. You build around those key players. Not get rid of them. The way Gruden is gutting that team IMO is horrible. Cooper trade I don't think is bad at all though.

So, lets say you are the Denver Broncos in 2016. Sure, you just won teh Super Bowl, but Peyton Manning is going to retire. Von Miller needs to be resigned. He is the best defender in pro football. So, you sign the 27 year old to a 6 year, $114 million contract with $70 million of that guaranteed and $42 of that guaranteed at signing.

With Trevor Siemian as your QB you go 9-7 in 2016 with Miller getting 13.5 sacks. In 2017 you have a record of 5-11 with Siemian at QB with MIller getting 10 sacks. And this season after signing Case Keenum to a 2 year, $36 million contract and Miller having a great year so far with 9 sacks in 9 games, your record is 3-6.

It would have been almost impossible to do in the circumstances the Broncos were in 2016. You probably can't break up a team coming off a Super Bowl win without alienating the entire fan base. But then, the Broncos haven't reached hte playoffs since. The head coach of the Super Bowl winning team has been fired. THe team is struggling to win and in dumping DeMaryius Thomas they basically have done a bit of "tanking" themselves.

Now, for arguments sake and using hindsight, lets say that this is the 2018 Raiders are the 2016 Broncos. They aren't coming off a Super Bowl victory. They don't have to worry about alienating their entire fan base because that fan base will be adios in two years. The NFL has remarkably changes since even 2016 so unlike the Broncos they could conceivably answer their longterm QB problems in the upcoming draft. ANd the guy they need to sign is Von Miller who in almost every way is identical to having to sign Mack (age, produciton, etc).

Would you do it? My guess is if you gave the Broncos the chance to change history, go 2-14 in 2016, trade Miller and Thomas for multiple picks, draft Mitchell Trubisky, they would take that deal.

All of which proves diddly squat. You are all conjecture. All we know is that Gruden has destroyed this team this year. I doubt losing Mack will be worth the draft picks. He now needs to have everyone of these extra picks work out. If they bat the average of 50% work out then it's a disaster.

Sorry, but your response is nonsense. All of this is conjecture. Gruden has "destroyed" this team this year, meaning they will win 1 or 2 games instead of 5 or 6, but it is being done for a purpose. Is the purpose valid? I think the logic makes a hell of a lot of sense, particularly when they don't give a flying fig about their existing fan base. This gives them a chance to draft a franchise QB, let him sit behind Carr next season, they then dump Carr with only a $5 million cap hit, have the franchise guy ready to play in the new city and stadium, and they still have a bit of honeymoon to work with in the long term development of the team.

THey could easily have the top pick in the 2019 draft and the 2020 draft, acquired a franchise QB without moving up, have multiples of firsts and seconds for both of those drafts, have another top pick in 2021, and then significant financial flexibility because they did not stick big time contracts on players that will not be as effective in 2021 on. Of that team of 2021, they could have more than half of them being first or 2nd round picks from those three drafts.